Farmland conversion and landfill sites

[bravado]

Pretty torn on this one - I work in manufacturing and I know a bit about the constraints, yet I also know that we are stuck in a race to the bottom for providing incentives to big companies vs other cities, and I also know that if 700 acres were grabbed for a new SFH subdivision there would be no outcry outside of groups like this.

It’s all just miserable so here’s hoping this makes valuable jobs and strengthens the industrial base around here. It’s stronger than a lot of people would think.

[Rainrider22]

I don't like to see us lose prime farming land.  You say just 6 family farms but you need to look at the acreage and just how much commodities those 700 acres produce.  Average yield of soybeans per acre is 4 to 5 tons.  Of course it is dependent on soil and weather but typically the land in our region produces high yields because it is of good quality soil.  That is a lot of good quality acres you are loosing.  All that being said, I agree, it is hard to turn down a great opportunity to create a lot of good jobs that would be good pay with benefits. Plus add on the spin off economy that is created to support a large mfging site.  For me as long as the owners are paid a fair market value on the land, then I can support the overall case.

I get it the point about losing farmland sucks, but I feel the Region has done a pretty good job at protecting farmland and accommodating a factory of this size will not change the regions mandate to protect Agricultural land. People act like there is just 700 acres of industrial land waiting for development. There isn't which is why we need to assembly the land. 

My understanding is they have been offered 35k per acre. FMV currently is 25-35k per acre in waterloo region. I think through arbitration/ expropriation they will probably see closer to 50k per acre, which is more than fair. Those that want to continue to farm would be able to buy a farm with 3-5 million they will receive.  I know they are trying (and achieving) at getting the public opinion on their side, some have even suggest they recieve FMV of the land as if it were zoned for industrial, which would be close to 500k per acres.

I really hope our elected officials don't fumble this one due to public pressure, if this actually a large factory like honda or Toyota, the economical spin off will be huge. Hundreds of part manufacturers will spring up in the area to support the factory. Similar to what we have seen with Toyota the past 50 years.

Just for some perspective, Soybeans fetch an average of 1.00 a pound or 2000.00 per ton. average 9 to 10 tons per acre is 18 k to 20 k / acre.  Still make more money in two years than the cash being offered.  Mind you, you have overhead  That is an entirely different story... seed, fuel, fertilizer, taxes, equipment costs. crop insurance etc,   Farmers make good money on that land... Again,  just pointing out some numbers.  Overall, like I said, it would likely benefit many more people to be made industrial than remain agriculture.

[ac3r]

I get that 6 family farms is nothing to scoff at, but I think a potential 18 billion dollar investment in the Region and 1000's of new high paying jobs trumps the small family farms. People need jobs.

Try telling this to the Redditors. There are a couple threads up on the local subs about this, with most people saying that we should protect the farms and do everything in our power to block whatever is proposed from be developed. I have a feeling this proposal will become a lot more complicated than it needs to be, if not entirely jeopardized by clueless NIMBYs and "progressives". Let's hope we don't shoot ourselves in the foot. We have a knack for going against our best interests in this region.

[Acitta]

Farmers fill Wilmot council chamber in opposition to land assembly

About 100 people packed the council chamber, with dozens more spilling downstairs and lining the sidewalk outside, some carrying signs that read “No Paving over Farmland” and “Save Our Homes.”

[danbrotherston]

I get it the point about losing farmland sucks, but I feel the Region has done a pretty good job at protecting farmland and accommodating a factory of this size will not change the regions mandate to protect Agricultural land. People act like there is just 700 acres of industrial land waiting for development. There isn't which is why we need to assembly the land. 

My understanding is they have been offered 35k per acre. FMV currently is 25-35k per acre in waterloo region. I think through arbitration/ expropriation they will probably see closer to 50k per acre, which is more than fair. Those that want to continue to farm would be able to buy a farm with 3-5 million they will receive.  I know they are trying (and achieving) at getting the public opinion on their side, some have even suggest they recieve FMV of the land as if it were zoned for industrial, which would be close to 500k per acres.

I really hope our elected officials don't fumble this one due to public pressure, if this actually a large factory like honda or Toyota, the economical spin off will be huge. Hundreds of part manufacturers will spring up in the area to support the factory. Similar to what we have seen with Toyota the past 50 years.

Just for some perspective, Soybeans fetch an average of 1.00 a pound or 2000.00 per ton. average 9 to 10 tons per acre is 18 k to 20 k / acre.  Still make more money in two years than the cash being offered.  Mind you, you have overhead  That is an entirely different story... seed, fuel, fertilizer, taxes, equipment costs. crop insurance etc,   Farmers make good money on that land... Again,  just pointing out some numbers.  Overall, like I said, it would likely benefit many more people to be made industrial than remain agriculture.

"More people benefit"...it's basically impossible to quantify the "benefit" of being more self-reliant by growing more food locally and on productive land. I don't think that's something you can attach a dollar value too, which is why it is so easy for politicians to sell this, in today's world, largely ephemeral benefit for some jobs.

But my biggest concern remains whether the industrial land is being used efficiently, and with care, are we poisoning the land in an excessively sprawling and remote facility that will induce massive VMT. Or are we building an efficient sustainable facility that minimizes the impact on our world and our society?

I think even urbanists far too often overlook industrial land use efficiency. FWIW...I think the land should be valued much higher, the low value of the land is WHY it is being built where it is...but again, the free market does not price things like food sustainability.

[ac3r]

Feels like they're going to need to go the expropriation route. The community reaction - however misinformed and shortsighted it may be - appears to be quite opposed to this idea. I think with some proper business cases for people to contextualize the potential benefits would help make a case for it, because we don't have much information to go on. However judging by the turnout to council, the noise in the media and all the online dialogue taking place on different social media people are already against it.

[westwardloo]

I get it the point about losing farmland sucks, but I feel the Region has done a pretty good job at protecting farmland and accommodating a factory of this size will not change the regions mandate to protect Agricultural land. People act like there is just 700 acres of industrial land waiting for development. There isn't which is why we need to assembly the land. 

My understanding is they have been offered 35k per acre. FMV currently is 25-35k per acre in waterloo region. I think through arbitration/ expropriation they will probably see closer to 50k per acre, which is more than fair. Those that want to continue to farm would be able to buy a farm with 3-5 million they will receive.  I know they are trying (and achieving) at getting the public opinion on their side, some have even suggest they recieve FMV of the land as if it were zoned for industrial, which would be close to 500k per acres.

I really hope our elected officials don't fumble this one due to public pressure, if this actually a large factory like honda or Toyota, the economical spin off will be huge. Hundreds of part manufacturers will spring up in the area to support the factory. Similar to what we have seen with Toyota the past 50 years.

Just for some perspective, Soybeans fetch an average of 1.00 a pound or 2000.00 per ton. average 9 to 10 tons per acre is 18 k to 20 k / acre.  Still make more money in two years than the cash being offered.  Mind you, you have overhead  That is an entirely different story... seed, fuel, fertilizer, taxes, equipment costs. crop insurance etc,   Farmers make good money on that land... Again,  just pointing out some numbers.  Overall, like I said, it would likely benefit many more people to be made industrial than remain agriculture.

I live on a farm and although we rent the land out, both me and my partners families are from a farming background. I can tell you with almost 100% certainty that farmers don't make anywhere close to 18k per acres.  Maybe $500 per acres on a good year. Soybeans can't be grown each year either, you typically rotate the crop between corn, wheat and soybeans. 

https://farmersforum.com/eastern-ontario...e-of-land/

These farmers are getting paid well to relocate. Does it suck, absolutely. 

Really it is the Neighbours that are the ones that are really pissed about this. They aren't getting the pay day and they will be living next to a giant factory. 100% this is more of a NIMBY issue then they want it to seem.

[Bytor]

The community reaction - however misinformed and shortsighted it may be

Why are you assuming that it is misinformed?

A big part of the problem is that we do not know why this is happening. There's no public plan for this like there normally is for projects requiring some expropriation.

Expropriation for public use? Fine. To help a corporation? No way. Let the corporation try to buy out the landowners themselves. And I mean try. If they get fair market value, expropriation is still doing it by force, even if for valid public needs. It should never be used to enrich a corporation.

I thought they were a bunch of NIMBYs opposing high speed rail, but for this I am on their side.

[danbrotherston]

This is an expropriation issue? I totally missed that! So in that way, I was misinformed. Well, you are absolutely right then. It is completely inappropriate for expropriation to be used to assemble land for private use.

[danbrotherston]

Just for some perspective, Soybeans fetch an average of 1.00 a pound or 2000.00 per ton. average 9 to 10 tons per acre is 18 k to 20 k / acre.  Still make more money in two years than the cash being offered.  Mind you, you have overhead  That is an entirely different story... seed, fuel, fertilizer, taxes, equipment costs. crop insurance etc,   Farmers make good money on that land... Again,  just pointing out some numbers.  Overall, like I said, it would likely benefit many more people to be made industrial than remain agriculture.

I live on a farm and although we rent the land out, both me and my partners families are from a farming background. I can tell you with almost 100% certainty that farmers don't make anywhere close to 18k per acres.  Maybe $500 per acres on a good year. Soybeans can't be grown each year either, you typically rotate the crop between corn, wheat and soybeans. 

https://farmersforum.com/eastern-ontario...e-of-land/

These farmers are getting paid well to relocate. Does it suck, absolutely. 

Really it is the Neighbours that are the ones that are really pissed about this. They aren't getting the pay day and they will be living next to a giant factory. 100% this is more of a NIMBY issue then they want it to seem.

This came up in a different thread (on the townships). I didn't realize this was an expropriation. To me, that's completely unacceptable. Should farms be converted to industrial is a question we can discuss. But whether our government should use the power of eminent domain to seize land from individuals and give it to a private company for private use and private wealth...that is unquestionably wrong. I don't know why it is even being considered?

As for the "NIMBY" aspect...I would argue that concerns about a toxic, polluting factory next to a farm is much more legitimate than concerns about the wrong kind of people living next to me is.

[Rainrider22]

Just for some perspective, Soybeans fetch an average of 1.00 a pound or 2000.00 per ton. average 9 to 10 tons per acre is 18 k to 20 k / acre.  Still make more money in two years than the cash being offered.  Mind you, you have overhead  That is an entirely different story... seed, fuel, fertilizer, taxes, equipment costs. crop insurance etc,   Farmers make good money on that land... Again,  just pointing out some numbers.  Overall, like I said, it would likely benefit many more people to be made industrial than remain agriculture.

I live on a farm and although we rent the land out, both me and my partners families are from a farming background. I can tell you with almost 100% certainty that farmers don't make anywhere close to 18k per acres.  Maybe $500 per acres on a good year. Soybeans can't be grown each year either, you typically rotate the crop between corn, wheat and soybeans. 

https://farmersforum.com/eastern-ontario...e-of-land/

These farmers are getting paid well to relocate. Does it suck, absolutely. 

Really it is the Neighbours that are the ones that are really pissed about this. They aren't getting the pay day and they will be living next to a giant factory. 100% this is more of a NIMBY issue then they want it to seem.

I too have a farming background.  My best friend is a commodities buyer/seller for a very large corporate company that sells all over the world, I know what he pays and those prices are accurate.  You are correct they dont "make" 18k per acre because of costs.  Fuel and fertilizer alone are killing profits...  Also, many farmers don't rotate crops.  I too rent out land and they have been doing soybeans for 10 years straight with no issue and high yields... but all I was trying to do was simply show what the worth of 700 acres can be to the agri business...

[westwardloo]

I live on a farm and although we rent the land out, both me and my partners families are from a farming background. I can tell you with almost 100% certainty that farmers don't make anywhere close to 18k per acres.  Maybe $500 per acres on a good year. Soybeans can't be grown each year either, you typically rotate the crop between corn, wheat and soybeans. 

https://farmersforum.com/eastern-ontario...e-of-land/

These farmers are getting paid well to relocate. Does it suck, absolutely. 

Really it is the Neighbours that are the ones that are really pissed about this. They aren't getting the pay day and they will be living next to a giant factory. 100% this is more of a NIMBY issue then they want it to seem.

I too have a farming background.  My best friend is a commodities buyer/seller for a very large corporate company that sells all over the world, I know what he pays and those prices are accurate.  You are correct they dont "make" 18k per acre because of costs.  Fuel and fertilizer alone are killing profits...  Also, many farmers don't rotate crops.  I too rent out land and they have been doing soybeans for 10 years straight with no issue and high yields... but all I was trying to do was simply show what the worth of 700 acres can be to the agri business...

I understand what you were trying to show. I am simply saying you are spouting false statements, that make it seem like farmers are making millions of dollars a year. I provided a source to back up my claim. 

The land in question yields roughly 60 bushels per acre on the high end. 

https://www.agricorp.com/en-ca/News/2024...per%20acre.
https://soycanada.ca/industry/statistics/average-yield/

The price per bushel if they waited to sell would be $15/ bu. 

https://fmn1.agricharts.com/pages/custom.php?id=12619
https://gfo.ca/marketing/daily-commodity...odity=1574

That works out to be $900/ acre of land. Assuming 100 acres of working land, they are making $90,000 per year on the land. Which does not include any overhead costs. They profit maybe $40,000 a year on soybeans. It would take them 100+ years of growing soybeans to recoup what they are going to make from the expropriation.

[ijmorlan]

I would also say that expropriation should not be useable to short circuit the normal search for a site for something. It should only be allowed when a specific piece of land is required. For example, to negotiate privately with landowners to assemble land for a highway across the province would be unmanageable. Whereas something like a factory always has numerous potential locations. I always considered that Yonge/Dundas Square should not have been allowed to be expropriated — if the City wants to build a public plaza, they can do it anywhere. Whereas in downtown Kitchener the train station obviously needs to be where it is going to be, so expropriation was perfectly appropriate there (although the Region did most of it without expropriation by conducting its real estate activities with discretion).

[ijmorlan]

…Also, many farmers don't rotate crops.  I too rent out land and they have been doing soybeans for 10 years straight with no issue and high yields...

Crop rotation is not about the next 10 years, but about the next several centuries at least. That they’ve repeated the same crop for 10 years doesn’t even begin to prove that it’s OK not to rotate.

(not a farmer; it may be fine not to rotate, I don’t know; but I do know that 10 years isn’t enough to establish validity of a farming practice related to soil quality)

[creative]

Crop rotation offers the most effective, indirect method of minimizing pest, disease and weed problems and maintaining and enhancing soil structure and fertility. Crop rotations can limit build-up of weeds that are favored in a single crop environment.