Welcome Guest!
In order to take advantage of all the great features that Waterloo Region Connected has to offer, including participating in the lively discussions below, you're going to have to register. The good news is that it'll take less than a minute and you can get started enjoying Waterloo Region's best online community right away.
or Create an Account




Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Taxation and the middle class
(07-09-2024, 06:25 PM)ac3r Wrote:
(07-09-2024, 10:01 AM)Vojnik_Vahaj Wrote: I might be wrong, but there are a ton of tax loopholes rich people use so no matter how much tax they owe, they'll find a way to get around it and not pay. We obviously need to fix the system but that seems unrealistic atm

There really aren't a ton of them. It's possible to lower the amount of taxes paid in many ways and possible to avoid some entirely, but it's not an easy thing to do. It's also precarious legally, so most people out there are not going to opt to do something that could result in having money taken away or face prosecution for. People in general just do not really like having to have their money be taxed. Every person out there looks at their finances, gets to the Tax and Deductions sections and sighs.

But contrary to the fact that there are countless economic philosophies that exist in human culture and people will develop their own views of what they see as ideal, we are all more or less constantly forced to participate in whatever system exists in our state by being held in bondage under the threat of force and/or violence should you attempt to not play by the rules of the state you reside in (with the concept of a state itself already being a complete abstraction as well). A state can't exist without taxation, so they've developed pretty good ways to ensure people do not find ways to not pay their fare share. There are very few actual loopholes remaining that make it easy these days. Most wealthy people are just wealthy because they have financial literacy, not because they're using tax loopholes or perhaps other schemes. If they'll chase someone down for years for owing say 1500 dollars, you can be assured the CRA does everything they can to chase down people with even money who may be dodging taxes or something.

If the issue is whether we should tax them more, well, that's a different issue. On that, I'd argue the government should learn what the hell they're doing with the tax they already do get. There is an insane amount of waste. There is also a lot of questionable reasoning to what they choose to tax. One example is the carbon tax is one contentious issue in Canadian society for some years now with all sides providing scientific, economic and political views both in support and against said tax. Whatever the case, a lot of our money we end up giving them isn't being spent too well whether it's at the local, provincial or federal levels. They should be fixing that to optimize what they currently have before seeking to take more.
Conservatives are always claiming that there is a lot of waste and taxes are too high. What they end up doing is cutting taxes for their rich friends and cutting social services like health care for the rest of us. They never want to cut the huge subsidies for oil companies, which is where the real waste is.
Reply


You can't really blame the entirety of wasteful spending on whatever political party is in office. It's more of an economic/financial issue at its core, not an ideological one. You can look at deficits and debts, for example, and see that both sides have done superb jobs of screwing that up.
Reply
(07-09-2024, 07:08 PM)ac3r Wrote: You can't really blame the entirety of wasteful spending on whatever political party is in office. It's more of an economic/financial issue at its core, not an ideological one. You can look at deficits and debts, for example, and see that both sides have done superb jobs of screwing that up.
Yes, but the Conservatives always end up increasing the deficit by cutting the taxes that pay for everything the government does.
Reply
(07-09-2024, 06:25 PM)ac3r Wrote:
(07-09-2024, 10:01 AM)Vojnik_Vahaj Wrote: I might be wrong, but there are a ton of tax loopholes rich people use so no matter how much tax they owe, they'll find a way to get around it and not pay. We obviously need to fix the system but that seems unrealistic atm

There really aren't a ton of them. It's possible to lower the amount of taxes paid in many ways and possible to avoid some entirely, but it's not an easy thing to do. It's also precarious legally, so most people out there are not going to opt to do something that could result in having money taken away or face prosecution for. People in general just do not really like having to have their money be taxed. Every person out there looks at their finances, gets to the Tax and Deductions sections and sighs.

I, for one, am happy to pay the 27% tax rate that my federal tax return says. There's that Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr quote “I like to pay taxes. With them, I buy civilization.”

It is also the case that the US IRS has been underfunded and are not as effective in going after higher-income people as they would like to be. It's a lot harder for people with regular T4 (W2) salary income to hide it from the government than people with more complicated investments.

https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/irs-announc...ce-efforts
Reply
Ok fair enough. To your point about tax waste, I know that Denmark has VERY high tax rates but the people don't really complaing because they have a very non-corrupt government and most of their tax money goes directly back into improving their standard of living.

Also, with and aging population, there will be a greater burden on the younger, working generations to support the retirees and I'm guessing that would be through more(but maybe not too much more) taxation to support public elder care facilities. For this, I think we should bring back multi-generational homes. They're a win-win in most cases. The grandparents get a place to live and in return babysit the children. Now, obviously some might not be able to take care of themselve for one reason or another, but in those cases there should be long-term care facilities or in-home nurses that come every day to help out when the household's breadwinners are at work. this obviously would require a good economy, which we don't have, but if its possible in poorer countries, a western country should be able to do it.
Galatians 4:16
Reply
(07-10-2024, 08:44 AM)Vojnik_Vahaj Wrote: Ok fair enough. To your point about tax waste, I know that Denmark has VERY high tax rates but the people don't really complaing because they have a very non-corrupt government and most of their tax money goes directly back into improving their standard of living.

Also, with and aging population, there will be a greater burden on the younger, working generations to support the retirees and I'm guessing that would be through more(but maybe not too much more) taxation to support public elder care facilities. For this, I think we should bring back multi-generational homes. They're a win-win in most cases. The grandparents get a place to live and in return babysit the children. Now, obviously some might not be able to take care of themselve for one reason or another, but in those cases there should be long-term care facilities or in-home nurses that come every day to help out when the household's breadwinners are at work. this obviously would require a good economy, which we don't have, but if its possible in poorer countries, a western country should be able to do it.

Care to define "bring back"..who is the voice in that passive sentence?

Multi-generational homes are not something our culture really sees as normalized, in fact, it's actually seen as a sign of failure (and is in fact being driven by our failure in housing) and there are various reasons for this in our society. But whether you think it's a good idea or not, changing this would involve pretty fundamental changes to our culture. So how does one change this?

Solutions, no matter how good or bad, need to be sociological in nature, and yes, that absolutely means also political.
Reply
(07-10-2024, 09:19 AM)danbrotherston Wrote:
(07-10-2024, 08:44 AM)Vojnik_Vahaj Wrote: Ok fair enough. To your point about tax waste, I know that Denmark has VERY high tax rates but the people don't really complaing because they have a very non-corrupt government and most of their tax money goes directly back into improving their standard of living.

Also, with and aging population, there will be a greater burden on the younger, working generations to support the retirees and I'm guessing that would be through more(but maybe not too much more) taxation to support public elder care facilities. For this, I think we should bring back multi-generational homes. They're a win-win in most cases. The grandparents get a place to live and in return babysit the children. Now, obviously some might not be able to take care of themselve for one reason or another, but in those cases there should be long-term care facilities or in-home nurses that come every day to help out when the household's breadwinners are at work. this obviously would require a good economy, which we don't have, but if its possible in poorer countries, a western country should be able to do it.

Care to define "bring back"..who is the voice in that passive sentence?

Multi-generational homes are not something our culture really sees as normalized, in fact, it's actually seen as a sign of failure (and is in fact being driven by our failure in housing) and there are various reasons for this in our society. But whether you think it's a good idea or not, changing this would involve pretty fundamental changes to our culture. So how does one change this?

Solutions, no matter how good or bad, need to be sociological in nature, and yes, that absolutely means also political.
Every society has had multigenerational housing at some point, it just needs to be more normalized in our current society. How to change this? Couldn't tell you, it is just an idea
Galatians 4:16
Reply


(07-10-2024, 08:44 AM)Vojnik_Vahaj Wrote: Ok fair enough. To your point about tax waste, I know that Denmark has VERY high tax rates but the people don't really complaing because they have a very non-corrupt government and most of their tax money goes directly back into improving their standard of living.

Also, with and aging population, there will be a greater burden on the younger, working generations to support the retirees and I'm guessing that would be through more(but maybe not too much more) taxation to support public elder care facilities. For this, I think we should bring back multi-generational homes. They're a win-win in most cases. The grandparents get a place to live and in return babysit the children. Now, obviously some might not be able to take care of themselve for one reason or another, but in those cases there should be long-term care facilities or in-home nurses that come every day to help out when the household's breadwinners are at work. this obviously would require a good economy, which we don't have, but if its possible in poorer countries, a western country should be able to do it.
Multi-generational homes only work if the family all live in the same city. These days, families are scattered all over the country or even the planet.
Reply
« Next Oldest | Next Newest »



Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)

About Waterloo Region Connected

Launched in August 2014, Waterloo Region Connected is an online community that brings together all the things that make Waterloo Region great. Waterloo Region Connected provides user-driven content fueled by a lively discussion forum covering topics like urban development, transportation projects, heritage issues, businesses and other issues of interest to those in Kitchener, Waterloo, Cambridge and the four Townships - North Dumfries, Wellesley, Wilmot, and Woolwich.

              User Links