GO Transit

[danbrotherston]

I’m thinking back to the old interurbans, which were effectively streetcar lines that extended out into the country. The idea is that we don’t necessarily need the huge volumes required to justify a full sized GO train. On the other hand, those interurbans were built when the roads were terrible; it may be that what makes sense in the modern context is buses, not long LRT lines.

I really wish that the RoW would change GRT's focus from only K/W/C to *all* the *designated* urban areas in Waterloo, of which would include Elmira, St. Jacobs, Wellesley, Baden, New Hamburg, and Ayr, and then require 15 minute head way express busses between them and the cities.

This would require the townships voting to apply the GRT taxes to them.

It would also require a huge subsidy from the cities.

Even the busiest rural bus routes don't justify a 15 minute headway right now...

[tomh009]

I’m thinking back to the old interurbans, which were effectively streetcar lines that extended out into the country. The idea is that we don’t necessarily need the huge volumes required to justify a full sized GO train. On the other hand, those interurbans were built when the roads were terrible; it may be that what makes sense in the modern context is buses, not long LRT lines.

I really wish that the RoW would change GRT's focus from only K/W/C to *all* the *designated* urban areas in Waterloo, of which would include Elmira, St. Jacobs, Wellesley, Baden, New Hamburg, and Ayr, and then require 15 minute head way express busses between them and the cities.

This could make sense if enough people in those areas were to use transit. But currently those areas are highly car-oriented, and most of them are limited in the amount of land available for development in/near their core areas.

[kps]

80km/hr is pretty much max rated speed for most LRT-grade vehicles out there, so the average speed when including stops is *always* going to be less than that. […]

The Flexities have a top speed of 70 km/h in a straight line, and rather less on curves, since the lack of yaw between segments prevents meaningful superelevation; unfortunately this means any future vehicles on those tracks will be equally constrained.

Better to buy all the GEXR/CP tracks down to Galt and the yard at Samuelson, make sure there's double tracks from Elmira to Galt, and run a heavy rail RER/commuter service that stops at Galt, Preston, Block Line, Downtown, Uptown, St Jacobs, and Elmira. With eyes on extending to Paris and Brantford, eventually, by rebuilding along the rail trail. (Yes, that can be done and still preserve the trail.)

Waterloo Central Railway has some nice RDCs that in principle can do 135 km/h. At least one of them even runs.

[tomh009]

80km/hr is pretty much max rated speed for most LRT-grade vehicles out there, so the average speed when including stops is *always* going to be less than that. […]

The Flexities have a top speed of 70 km/h in a straight line, and rather less on curves, (...)

Flexity Freedom is rated at 80 km/h (the older Flexity Outlook might have been 70 km/h).

[nms]

Waterloo Central Railway has some nice RDCs that in principle can do 135 km/h. At least one of them even runs.

Next up would be continuing to upgrade the tracks north of Northfield drive. While the WCR prefers a more scenic speed, and the night-time freight likely doesn't care as long as they can do the short round trip in their overnight service window, I would wonder what would happen if the Region (or the WCR or CN) offered to go splits on a faster upgrade schedule than what is currently in place. I would doubt that miles of welded rail would be on the table, but there would definitely be enough work possible to bring it closer to mainline speed.

[the_conestoga_guy]

If the entire GO network becomes electrified, would regular freight trains and VIA trains be able to make use of the overhead power lines?

I've tried to look up an answer to this question, but I haven't been able to come up with a clear answer. If yes, and considering how much less expensive it is to power trains this way, why haven't we seen other rail operators advocating for network electrification?

[ac3r]

I doubt that would happen. They'd need new locomotives to be able to take advantage of that, wouldn't they? They'd also need to switch locomotives once they reach the point where lines aren't electrified. Considering a lot of the trains going south are going into Windsor/Detroit or Sarnia/Port Huron, that would be a huge logistical issue with scheduling. These are mainlines that see incredibly high volumes of freight crossing in and out of the border, so they want everything to operate as smoothly as possible.

Electric rail is nice, but diesel works fine for freight trains IMO. I'm not a train expert although I love trains, but I think one benefit of diesel is that it lets us run much longer trains. European freight trains don't run as long as ours, whereas we have freight trains that are often longer than 3 kilometers (which is nuts! and I think the limit is something like 4.2 kilometers) and due to our chaotic geography, they need as much power as possible, which is why those long intercontinental intermodals run with like...4 locomotives on the front and various DPUs in the middle and back. It's just much easier to stick with diesel.

[danbrotherston]

If the entire GO network becomes electrified, would regular freight trains and VIA trains be able to make use of the overhead power lines?

I've tried to look up an answer to this question, but I haven't been able to come up with a clear answer. If yes, and considering how much less expensive it is to power trains this way, why haven't we seen other rail operators advocating for network electrification?

There is no technical reason that freight and via trains couldn't use these wires, but it's not free, they'd have to invest in dual mode locomotives. It probably wouldn't make sense for such a small area of their network.

But more to the point CN and CP will NEVER use wires because they refuse to allow electrification of the tracks they run their freight over. It's just one more reason that Metrolinx not building the bypass is a failure, because it means they can never electrify the Kitchener line.

As for cost, the cost to run a train is cheaper, but the infra is vastly more expensive (especially if you don't electrify your entire network, which means you need dual mode locomotives which are more expensive). It only makes sense on heavily used lines, and only for a company which is investing in it's infra.

[danbrotherston]

I doubt that would happen. They'd need new locomotives to be able to take advantage of that, wouldn't they? They'd also need to switch locomotives once they reach the point where lines aren't electrified. Considering a lot of the trains going south are going into Windsor/Detroit or Sarnia/Port Huron, that would be a huge logistical issue with scheduling. These are mainlines that see incredibly high volumes of freight crossing in and out of the border, so they want everything to operate as smoothly as possible.

Electric rail is nice, but diesel works fine for freight trains IMO. I'm not a train expert although I love trains, but I think one benefit of diesel is that it lets us run much longer trains. European freight trains don't run as long as ours, whereas we have freight trains that are often longer than 3 kilometers (which is nuts! and I think the limit is something like 4.2 kilometers) and due to our chaotic geography, they need as much power as possible, which is why those long intercontinental intermodals run with like...4 locomotives on the front and various DPUs in the middle and back. It's just much easier to stick with diesel.

Diesel "works fine" for passenger rail as well. But there are big benefits to electrification...climate change is a big advantage, but also local air pollution. These are the same for freight and passenger trains.

AFAIK there is no reason that an electric locomotive freight train couldn't be just as long as a diesel freight train, electric locomotives are much more powerful than diesel locos. Europe runs shorter trains for many reasons, but not really related to using electric locos (and many (even most maybe) of their rail freight is pulled by diesel locos).

[Bob_McBob]

https://www.reddit.com/r/ontario/comment...ce_levels/

[Bytor]

I doubt that would happen. They'd need new locomotives to be able to take advantage of that, wouldn't they? They'd also need to switch locomotives once they reach the point where lines aren't electrified. Considering a lot of the trains going south are going into Windsor/Detroit or Sarnia/Port Huron, that would be a huge logistical issue with scheduling. These are mainlines that see incredibly high volumes of freight crossing in and out of the border, so they want everything to operate as smoothly as possible.

Electric rail is nice, but diesel works fine for freight trains IMO. I'm not a train expert although I love trains, but I think one benefit of diesel is that it lets us run much longer trains. European freight trains don't run as long as ours, whereas we have freight trains that are often longer than 3 kilometers (which is nuts! and I think the limit is something like 4.2 kilometers) and due to our chaotic geography, they need as much power as possible, which is why those long intercontinental intermodals run with like...4 locomotives on the front and various DPUs in the middle and back. It's just much easier to stick with diesel.

Diesel "works fine" for passenger rail as well. But there are big benefits to electrification...climate change is a big advantage, but also local air pollution. These are the same for freight and passenger trains.

AFAIK there is no reason that an electric locomotive freight train couldn't be just as long as a diesel freight train, electric locomotives are much more powerful than diesel locos. Europe runs shorter trains for many reasons, but not really related to using electric locos (and many (even most maybe) of their rail freight is pulled by diesel locos).

Isn't most Swiss freight rail electrified?

[plam]

Isn't most Swiss freight rail electrified?

I have seen a historical train running in Switzerland, I believe on coal. The Wikipedia page seems to say that it's mostly electricity, but some diesel chunters.

[Votemac]

https://www.reddit.com/r/ontario/comment...ce_levels/

I feel the same frustration. Year after year

[ac3r]

No plans yet to resume pre-pandemic levels of GO train service between Kitchener and Toronto: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitchener...-1.6403752

[taylortbb]

No plans yet to resume pre-pandemic levels of GO train service between Kitchener and Toronto: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitchener...-1.6403752

I feel like that's exactly the sort of dumb statement I expect from Metrolinx, which despite what they claim remains almost 100% focused on commuters into downtown Toronto.

Commuting from KW into downtown Toronto wasn't popular before the pandemic, and it's only going to be less popular now that remote work is firmly established. But the trains CBC was asking about weren't the commuter trains, they were the afternoon and evening trains. Why does Metrolinx think commuter demand is indicative of non-commuter demand? Of course the morning trains are lower ridership than pre-pandemic, but the afternoon might be just as popular.