GO Transit

[tomh009]

I'm not sure what was not "knowable" before...we KNEW we were advocating for better transit connections to Toronto. It is knowable from other systems around the world that fare card integration is a significant benefit.

And yet the percentage of transit riders that regularly use both GRT and a Presto-based system is tiny (we can see this from the GO ridership data). So, arguably, being able to provide better solutions for university/college students and for low-income residents could be viewed as more important than Presto integration.

Metrolinx's stance on Presto really reminds me of the old Lily Tomlin skits ... "we don't care, we are the phone company, we don't have to!"

Integration would be nice but I really don't see it as a disaster at this point in time.

[danbrotherston]

I'm not sure what was not "knowable" before...we KNEW we were advocating for better transit connections to Toronto. It is knowable from other systems around the world that fare card integration is a significant benefit.

And yet the percentage of transit riders that regularly use both GRT and a Presto-based system is tiny (we can see this from the GO ridership data). So, arguably, being able to provide better solutions for university/college students and for low-income residents could be viewed as more important than Presto integration.

Metrolinx's stance on Presto really reminds me of the old Lily Tomlin skits ... "we don't care, we are the phone company, we don't have to!"

Integration would be nice but I really don't see it as a disaster at this point in time.

This is a fair argument (although lack of an integrated fare card does decrease combined transit riders), but I'd argue this is partly to do with the failure to invest in intercity transit.

If I was running things at Metrolinx, we'd already have a real plan for 2WAD GO to Toronto, Cambridge GO, plus investing into intercity regional transit (Guelph, Elora, Paris, Brantford, Hamilton and beyond, Stratford, St. Marys, London, and beyond).

That would significantly increase the ridership benefitting from a unified fare card.

But that's the other argument that is a pretty good argument that Presto isn't a big deal, which is that our province will let us down. But that's sadly rather cynical.

[taylortbb]

Yes it did.

It involved giving all students a Presto card with a monthly pass loaded onto it in addition to their student pass. This was done in other cities with universities.

That system didn't exist when we chose EasyGo. Even now it barely exists, UoIT's u-pass works only via the Presto e-tickets app, and is impossible to load onto a Presto card (see https://registrar.ontariotechu.ca/fees-a.../index.php ). As far as I can tell, McMaster is the only university that lets you load a u-pass onto a physical Presto card.

I'm not sure what was not "knowable" before...we KNEW we were advocating for better transit connections to Toronto. It is knowable from other systems around the world that fare card integration is a significant benefit.

You're comparing Presto today to EasyGo, that's what I mean by knowable at the time. At the time, Presto wouldn't commit to rolling out GRT before ION opened. That left a risk that ION would be ready to go, except there would be no fare system for it (as using the legacy fare system doesn't work with proof-of-payment). You can argue we could have just made ION free until Presto was ready to go, but that would certainly have significant cost, and would be politically problematic for the region. In the end ION got delayed, but again, that wasn't known at the time.

I'm not opposed to the argument we should be on Presto, but you present it like there was an obvious choice and the region was a bunch of idiots. The reality is it that there were significant trade-offs with either option, and not clear winner.

[KevinT]

In fact, the article you link supports me here--council made a decision. I believe that it was the wrong decision, but that isn't what I'm arguing here. All I am saying is that it was a CHOICE that we didn't go with Presto and saying it wasn't a choice because Presto didn't participate in the RFP is BS.

100% agree with you Dan. As ac3r pointed out, the value of seamless travel beyond the region is huge, and was opted against by not being willing to change the fare structure of our little corner of the province. That was a choice that could have been made, and wasn't.

[ac3r]

Region joins study to build all-day GO ridership: https://www.therecord.com/news/waterloo-...rship.html

[KevinL]

Some councillors said the region should be prioritizing transit within its own boundaries first.

“We don’t have to remind council that we need to get LRT into Cambridge,” Coun. Karl Kiefer said.

Township of North Dumfries Mayor Sue Foxton expressed a similar sentiment.

“We should have the whole Region of Waterloo connected,” she said.

I'm hearing a lot of 'no, but' when we can easily say 'yes, and'. Frustrating.

[ac3r]

Connecting the townships to the LRT would be interesting, if that's what the mayor of North Dumfries was implying. A bit too costly right now, but it would be a huge boom for the townships. You see small towns connected with light rail, trams and even trains in countries like England and Germany.

[danbrotherston]

Connecting the townships to the LRT would be interesting, if that's what the mayor of North Dumfries was implying. A bit too costly right now, but it would be a huge boom for the townships. You see small towns connected with light rail, trams and even trains in countries like England and Germany.

I think she was speaking of bus service...there's NO way LRT would be justified at this point, only Elmira can even begin to justify full bus service, even New Hamburg/Baden isn't supporting a full bus service at this point. Ayr wants bus service.

[ijmorlan]

I think she was speaking of bus service...there's NO way LRT would be justified at this point, only Elmira can even begin to justify full bus service, even New Hamburg/Baden isn't supporting a full bus service at this point. Ayr wants bus service.

I wouldn’t grant that. We build 4-lane roads out to new subdivisions with nobody living in them all the time; why not build LRT out to a small existing town and plan for the LRT rather than roads to take future traffic growth?

A student residence in Elmira straddling the tracks with elevators direct to platform level would be closer to UW in time than most existing student housing.

[danbrotherston]

I think she was speaking of bus service...there's NO way LRT would be justified at this point, only Elmira can even begin to justify full bus service, even New Hamburg/Baden isn't supporting a full bus service at this point. Ayr wants bus service.

I wouldn’t grant that. We build 4-lane roads out to new subdivisions with nobody living in them all the time; why not build LRT out to a small existing town and plan for the LRT rather than roads to take future traffic growth?

A student residence in Elmira straddling the tracks with elevators direct to platform level would be closer to UW in time than most existing student housing.

Hyperbole? Almost all existing student housing is within a 20 minute walk, and with the majority being less than 10 minutes from UW. When you include Laurier and Conestoga College the percentage of student oriented housing within 10 minute walk of a post secondary campus is probably >90%.

Elmira on the other hand, minimum travel time, by car, speeding straight down 85 from the south end of Elmira is already 15 minutes. No LRT is going to come close to being faster than walking from almost all student housing.

But I digress, I would love it if we prioritized transit in new developments. But I'm also realistic, a town of 4k (Ayr, where Sue Foxton is mayor) is not going to justify an LRT at any point in the foreseeable future. Mayor Foxton knows this, she was absolutely speaking about getting bus service to her area.

Even Elmira won't justify LRT while we have the current incentives and development plans in place. The only way for Elmira to justify LRT would be a 10x increase in the cost of driving, along with a 10x increase in density targets.

[ac3r]

Connecting the townships to the LRT would be interesting, if that's what the mayor of North Dumfries was implying. A bit too costly right now, but it would be a huge boom for the townships. You see small towns connected with light rail, trams and even trains in countries like England and Germany.

I think she was speaking of bus service...there's NO way LRT would be justified at this point, only Elmira can even begin to justify full bus service, even New Hamburg/Baden isn't supporting a full bus service at this point. Ayr wants bus service.

Yeah I figured it would be bus service. That said, a light rail connection would be really transformative though ridership wouldn't warrant that at all right now. But it would be a huge catalyst for growth in the suburbs, especially because you could easily run a LRV in the townships at high speed, making commuting into the city super fast.

Buses would be nice to see sometime. I love all the towns on our urban periphery but since I don't drive, I basically never get to visit them. With a bus, I'd gladly hop on and spend a day wandering around somewhere like Elmira.

[danbrotherston]

I think she was speaking of bus service...there's NO way LRT would be justified at this point, only Elmira can even begin to justify full bus service, even New Hamburg/Baden isn't supporting a full bus service at this point. Ayr wants bus service.

Yeah I figured it would be bus service. That said, a light rail connection would be really transformative though ridership wouldn't warrant that at all right now. But it would be a huge catalyst for growth in the suburbs, especially because you could easily run a LRV in the townships at high speed, making commuting into the city super fast.

Buses would be nice to see sometime. I love all the towns on our urban periphery but since I don't drive, I basically never get to visit them. With a bus, I'd gladly hop on and spend a day wandering around somewhere like Elmira.

This is an anti-goal.

I fully support buses to the townships, I've ridden the two we have multiple times. I also support better bike infra.

But ultimately, I'm a pragmatist, if I have to choose, I prefer to develop transit and density in the cities where it can have more impact.  We shouldn't have to choose, but sometimes we do anyway.

[ijmorlan]

I wouldn’t grant that. We build 4-lane roads out to new subdivisions with nobody living in them all the time; why not build LRT out to a small existing town and plan for the LRT rather than roads to take future traffic growth?

A student residence in Elmira straddling the tracks with elevators direct to platform level would be closer to UW in time than most existing student housing.

Hyperbole? Almost all existing student housing is within a 20 minute walk, and with the majority being less than 10 minutes from UW. When you include Laurier and Conestoga College the percentage of student oriented housing within 10 minute walk of a post secondary campus is probably >90%.

Elmira on the other hand, minimum travel time, by car, speeding straight down 85 from the south end of Elmira is already 15 minutes. No LRT is going to come close to being faster than walking from almost all student housing.

S Field Dr. in Elmira, at the tracks, to UW station is about 13km along the tracks, or 10 minutes at 80km/h.

So with the right LRT service, I think that compares pretty favourably to a lot of existing student commutes.

That being said, not every building could be literally on the station, and realistically if we ever get LRT to Elmira it would probably poke along at 70km/h, and depending on how many stops there are the real speed would be way below my 80km/h, and so on, but to just cede all interurban transport to road-based vehicles is in my opinion unambitious, especially in the medium to long term.

[jamincan]

A regional LRT service between New Hamburg and Guelph would be an interesting prospect. In particular, the villages around KW often have nice cores that are hard to replicate. It would be nice if we could build greater intensity around those centres without the commuting pattern defaulting to the car.

[plam]

And I wanted to reiterate ac3r's point that there is rail service to surprisingly small towns in Europe. It would be really nice to have that here. (But no, I don't think we have the political support for it).