Gaukel Street Pedestrian Promenade

[Rainrider22]

I stopped by with my daughter on our way to the grand opening of Walper Barber shop on Saturday. It looked great and there was a nice turn out. I spoke to the Mayor for a while. He advised me that overall Counsel supports the idea of closing the road permanently and making it into a pedestrian way. Also of note, I asked him now that the development levy waiver for new builds in the downtown is complete, does he think there will be a slow down in new development. He advised it was the opposite, they are seeing even more new project proposals in the stream for the future. If this is the case, I think that addressing areas like Gaukel street even more important.

[Spokes]

Wow that's really positive news

[kwcc]

Any thoughts on the impacts of the new Cycling Grid on the pedestrian promenade? 

I keep hearing that the City doesn't want to route the Cycling Grid down Gaukel (connecting existing Young Street cycle route to Victoria Park) because it will be a pedestrian path but it seems to me that that would be a bonus.

The City's traffic study done for the Cycling Grid showed a 4X increase in traffic at the Gaukel/Charles intersection and one-way streets (Joseph) are well known to be a divide in neighbourhoods. 

Does this seem counter productive to the goal?

[danbrotherston]

Any thoughts on the impacts of the new Cycling Grid on the pedestrian promenade? 

I keep hearing that the City doesn't want to route the Cycling Grid down Gaukel (connecting existing Young Street cycle route to Victoria Park) because it will be a pedestrian path but it seems to me that that would be a bonus.

The City's traffic study done for the Cycling Grid showed a 4X increase in traffic at the Gaukel/Charles intersection and one-way streets (Joseph) are well known to be a divide in neighbourhoods. 

Does this seem counter productive to the goal?

Ultimately the traffic is simply being shifted from Joseph to Charles, I don't think that matters much.

In fact, I'd love to have seen Joseph actually closed to cars, all the traffic shifted to Charles, and the plaza connected to the park, but that's not going to happen for a long time.

As for "one way streets being a divide"...theres a difference between the 3 lane one way highway of Bridgeport Rd. and a one lane road that is one way.  Duke St. is one way south of Krug but it in no way divides the neighbourhood (that's the job of Weber St.).

[panamaniac]

Any thoughts on the impacts of the new Cycling Grid on the pedestrian promenade? 

I keep hearing that the City doesn't want to route the Cycling Grid down Gaukel (connecting existing Young Street cycle route to Victoria Park) because it will be a pedestrian path but it seems to me that that would be a bonus.

The City's traffic study done for the Cycling Grid showed a 4X increase in traffic at the Gaukel/Charles intersection and one-way streets (Joseph) are well known to be a divide in neighbourhoods. 

Does this seem counter productive to the goal?

Isn't Joseph two-way?

[danbrotherston]

Any thoughts on the impacts of the new Cycling Grid on the pedestrian promenade? 

I keep hearing that the City doesn't want to route the Cycling Grid down Gaukel (connecting existing Young Street cycle route to Victoria Park) because it will be a pedestrian path but it seems to me that that would be a bonus.

The City's traffic study done for the Cycling Grid showed a 4X increase in traffic at the Gaukel/Charles intersection and one-way streets (Joseph) are well known to be a divide in neighbourhoods. 

Does this seem counter productive to the goal?

Isn't Joseph two-way?

The proposed downtown cycling grid would convert it to a one way single lane street, using the other lane for a bi-directional cycletrack separated with curbs.

[samnabi]

I keep hearing that the City doesn't want to route the Cycling Grid down Gaukel (connecting existing Young Street cycle route to Victoria Park) because it will be a pedestrian path but it seems to me that that would be a bonus.

Back in 2019 there was a lot of discussion between interested neighbours, city staff, CycleWR and the neighbourhood associations about whether Gaukel should be for pedestrians or for both peds + cycling.

Looking at a map, it might seem like Gaukel is a natural trail extension off of Vic Park, it's not actually a great route for cycling. The area of Victoria Park around the big green, past the clocktower and at the Joseph St. entrance is great for pedestrians, but too constrained and meandering for bikes. Water Street and David/Ontario Street are much better cycling routes to get from the Iron Horse Trail to downtown.

We're at the point where we can plan for both cycling and pedestrian infrastructure in a way that doesn't lump them together all the time, and I think that's great.

[kwcc]

Any thoughts on the impacts of the new Cycling Grid on the pedestrian promenade? 

I keep hearing that the City doesn't want to route the Cycling Grid down Gaukel (connecting existing Young Street cycle route to Victoria Park) because it will be a pedestrian path but it seems to me that that would be a bonus.

The City's traffic study done for the Cycling Grid showed a 4X increase in traffic at the Gaukel/Charles intersection and one-way streets (Joseph) are well known to be a divide in neighbourhoods. 

Does this seem counter productive to the goal?

Ultimately the traffic is simply being shifted from Joseph to Charles, I don't think that matters much.

In fact, I'd love to have seen Joseph actually closed to cars, all the traffic shifted to Charles, and the plaza connected to the park, but that's not going to happen for a long time.

As for "one way streets being a divide"...theres a difference between the 3 lane one way highway of Bridgeport Rd. and a one lane road that is one way.  Duke St. is one way south of Krug but it in no way divides the neighbourhood (that's the job of Weber St.).

I don't think your reading of the traffic study is very accurate. 
It's not true that "traffic is simply being shifted from Joseph to Charles". If so, that still begs the question, what about the impacts of dividing the pedestrian street by a busy street, Charles? 
The City's traffic study showed a significant increase of cars diverting to local streets.
Those streets have a significant number of people living in affordable housing. Do you support the displacement of those families and the kids who can currently ride their bikes on the street?

[kwcc]

Isn't Joseph two-way?

The proposed downtown cycling grid would convert it to a one way single lane street, using the other lane for a bi-directional cycletrack separated with curbs.

Who do you think the target audience for the bi-directional cycletrack is?
I'm quite comfortable on the sparsely used streets in that area. I actually find being confined in those cycle tracks claustrophobic and frustrating when you can't get around things. 
Is it true that the maintenance of the cycletrack is $80,000/year/KM?

[kwcc]

I keep hearing that the City doesn't want to route the Cycling Grid down Gaukel (connecting existing Young Street cycle route to Victoria Park) because it will be a pedestrian path but it seems to me that that would be a bonus.

Back in 2019 there was a lot of discussion between interested neighbours, city staff, CycleWR and the neighbourhood associations about whether Gaukel should be for pedestrians or for both peds + cycling.

Looking at a map, it might seem like Gaukel is a natural trail extension off of Vic Park, it's not actually a great route for cycling. The area of Victoria Park around the big green, past the clocktower and at the Joseph St. entrance is great for pedestrians, but too constrained and meandering for bikes. Water Street and David/Ontario Street are much better cycling routes to get from the Iron Horse Trail to downtown.

We're at the point where we can plan for both cycling and pedestrian infrastructure in a way that doesn't lump them together all the time, and I think that's great.

It's unfortunate that I don't think the people who actually live on those streets were consulted. I saw a lady crying in the meeting last Thursday, saying:"I'm glad someone is finally speaking up for us."
Sad.

[danbrotherston]

The proposed downtown cycling grid would convert it to a one way single lane street, using the other lane for a bi-directional cycletrack separated with curbs.

Who do you think the target audience for the bi-directional cycletrack is?
I'm quite comfortable on the sparsely used streets in that area. I actually find being confined in those cycle tracks claustrophobic and frustrating when you can't get around things. 
Is it true that the maintenance of the cycletrack is $80,000/year/KM?

The cycletrack is targeted at the 66% of people who want to cycle more, but are uncomfortable sharing the road with cars.

I am glad we are going to stop wasting our money building infrastructure for the 6% of people like you and I who are comfortable sharing with some cars, and build something for everyone.

And yeah, it's annoying when vehicles block bike lanes, it's so good that these have curbs to prevent it.

Yes, plowing is expensive, just wait till you hear what we spend on plowing roads.

[danbrotherston]

Ultimately the traffic is simply being shifted from Joseph to Charles, I don't think that matters much.

In fact, I'd love to have seen Joseph actually closed to cars, all the traffic shifted to Charles, and the plaza connected to the park, but that's not going to happen for a long time.

As for "one way streets being a divide"...theres a difference between the 3 lane one way highway of Bridgeport Rd. and a one lane road that is one way.  Duke St. is one way south of Krug but it in no way divides the neighbourhood (that's the job of Weber St.).

I don't think your reading of the traffic study is very accurate. 
It's not true that "traffic is simply being shifted from Joseph to Charles". If so, that still begs the question, what about the impacts of dividing the pedestrian street by a busy street, Charles? 
The City's traffic study showed a significant increase of cars diverting to local streets.
Those streets have a significant number of people living in affordable housing. Do you support the displacement of those families and the kids who can currently ride their bikes on the street?

The victoria park neighbourhood is not known for affordable housing...at best, it's a mixed neighbourhood with a little of everything, it's a great place, and the traffic shifted there is largely as a result of closing Water St at Jubilee.

[danbrotherston]

Back in 2019 there was a lot of discussion between interested neighbours, city staff, CycleWR and the neighbourhood associations about whether Gaukel should be for pedestrians or for both peds + cycling.

Looking at a map, it might seem like Gaukel is a natural trail extension off of Vic Park, it's not actually a great route for cycling. The area of Victoria Park around the big green, past the clocktower and at the Joseph St. entrance is great for pedestrians, but too constrained and meandering for bikes. Water Street and David/Ontario Street are much better cycling routes to get from the Iron Horse Trail to downtown.

We're at the point where we can plan for both cycling and pedestrian infrastructure in a way that doesn't lump them together all the time, and I think that's great.

It's unfortunate that I don't think the people who actually live on those streets were consulted. I saw a lady crying in the meeting last Thursday, saying:"I'm glad someone is finally speaking up for us."
Sad.

That is not even remotely true, every single one of those houses received a documentation, and I know the person in charge here, and they are extremely dedicated to deep public consultation. I also happen to know that they went door to door with all the small businesses affected by this.

Those who live on the streets are aggressively consulted, this is always the way it is, too much I feel.

As for people who think nobody is speaking for them, this is a common refrain from people who are accustomed to being listened exclusively too, and are now dealing with other people's voices being in the mix.

Also, I'm not sure what "last Thursday" meeting you are talking about, there was no public consultation or city meeting about the downtown grid or Guakel street on Dec 3 or Nov 26 that I know of.

[kwcc]

Who do you think the target audience for the bi-directional cycletrack is?
I'm quite comfortable on the sparsely used streets in that area. I actually find being confined in those cycle tracks claustrophobic and frustrating when you can't get around things. 
Is it true that the maintenance of the cycletrack is $80,000/year/KM?

The cycletrack is targeted at the 66% of people who want to cycle more, but are uncomfortable sharing the road with cars.

I am glad we are going to stop wasting our money building infrastructure for the 6% of people like you and I who are comfortable sharing with some cars, and build something for everyone.

And yeah, it's annoying when vehicles block bike lanes, it's so good that these have curbs to prevent it.

Yes, plowing is expensive, just wait till you hear what we spend on plowing roads.

Could you imagine if it was $80,000/KM?!
I don't know how many KM's of road the city owns but I don't think I can do the math, anyways.

[jwilliamson]

The City of Kitchener maintains about 980 "two-lane kilometres" of roads. For the 2020 budget, they approved $12 million for operations, $44 million/year for road reconstruction, and about $13 million/year for other road and bridge projects. That's about $70,000/year/kilometre, as far as I can see.

https://www.kitchener.ca/en/city-service...udget.aspx