ION Phase 2 - Cambridge's Light Rail Transit

[nms]

Cash spent in one part of the municipality (or province) means cash doesn't get spent in another part. Yes, there are various complicated formulas and area-rating that claims to ensure that some citizens in a municipality don't pay for services in another part of the municipality, but in the end everyone in the municipality expects a certain level of service (or not). 

See also: various parts of Toronto arguing over services that are not (yet) universal; parts Cambridge arguing over where to park an athletic complex; or construction season that sees partial work done in every ward of the City, rather than complete work done on a few projects at a time, which might mean that some wards get no work in one year, but gets work in the next year.

[MidTowner]

I still think Hamilton should take some of the burden, but that city be looking for freebies only. And at that, the majority of people were still against it. Seeing the reaction to my friends in Hamilton and they're all praising Ford, a dude they normally hate.

I imagine the hatred is based on this: The original city of Hamilton, is about 330,000 - roughly. You probably have 140,000 living "Up the mountain" so 190,000 people living "down the mountain". I would guess that those from Ancaster, Dundas, Stoney Creek and "Up the Mountain" have little interest in this project....not to mention the rest of Hamilton which butts up against Cambridge and the 401.

What I have never understood, much like I don't understand the people of Woolwich, why do you care? Not your cash, technically.

nms is right in what he says that about many people viewing spending like this as zero sum, and seeing projects serving "others" as projects that will not happen to serve them. In Hamilton, though, another consideration is that the stroads moving traffic quickly through Hamilton's downtown serve suburbanites well, and their councillors are loth to support anything to fix them. LRT was seen as not only not benefiting suburbanites, not only spending that could have been spent elsewhere, but tying up suburbanites' roads through Hamilton with construction, and then lane reductions.

In 2015, the City (using Metrolinx's "quick wins" pot of money) installed a pilot bus lane for about two kilometres of King Street.

The lane was successful in terms of improving transit performance, minimally impactful on private vehicle speeds, and paid for with money from Metrolinx, but when the time came to keep it, the suburban councillors voted against. Wards one through four (one and two being where the thing was actually located) were in support, and the others (who, viewing the map, have nothing to do with it) opposed. It wasn't even a matter of anyone's commute in a single occupant vehicle being lengthened, just the idea that it could be, that led to the opposition.

[welltoldtales]

I still think Hamilton should take some of the burden, but that city be looking for freebies only. And at that, the majority of people were still against it. Seeing the reaction to my friends in Hamilton and they're all praising Ford, a dude they normally hate.

I imagine the hatred is based on this: The original city of Hamilton, is about 330,000 - roughly. You probably have 140,000 living "Up the mountain" so 190,000 people living "down the mountain". I would guess that those from Ancaster, Dundas, Stoney Creek and "Up the Mountain" have little interest in this project....not to mention the rest of Hamilton which butts up against Cambridge and the 401.

What I have never understood, much like I don't understand the people of Woolwich, why do you care? Not your cash, technically.

nms is right in what he says that about many people viewing spending like this as zero sum, and seeing projects serving "others" as projects that will not happen to serve them. In Hamilton, though, another consideration is that the stroads moving traffic quickly through Hamilton's downtown serve suburbanites well, and their councillors are loth to support anything to fix them. LRT was seen as not only not benefiting suburbanites, not only spending that could have been spent elsewhere, but tying up suburbanites' roads through Hamilton with construction, and then lane reductions.

In 2015, the City (using Metrolinx's "quick wins" pot of money) installed a pilot bus lane for about two kilometres of King Street.

The lane was successful in terms of improving transit performance, minimally impactful on private vehicle speeds, and paid for with money from Metrolinx, but when the time came to keep it, the suburban councillors voted against. Wards one through four (one and two being where the thing was actually located) were in support, and the others (who, viewing the map, have nothing to do with it) opposed. It wasn't even a matter of anyone's commute in a single occupant vehicle being lengthened, just the idea that it could be, that led to the opposition.

And people wonder why I am against amalgamation. I'll take #WatReg collaboration over the mess Hamilton often finds itself in post-amalgamation.

[Bytor]

Cash spent in one part of the municipality (or province) means cash doesn't get spent in another part. Yes, there are various complicated formulas and area-rating that claims to ensure that some citizens in a municipality don't pay for services in another part of the municipality, but in the end everyone in the municipality expects a certain level of service (or not).

Except in the case of ION it was specifically funded by levies *only* applied to the three cities and not to the townships, so in this case it was not a case of your "cash spent in one place can't be spent elsewhere" hypothesis.

[jeffster]

I still think Hamilton should take some of the burden, but that city be looking for freebies only. And at that, the majority of people were still against it. Seeing the reaction to my friends in Hamilton and they're all praising Ford, a dude they normally hate.

I imagine the hatred is based on this: The original city of Hamilton, is about 330,000 - roughly. You probably have 140,000 living "Up the mountain" so 190,000 people living "down the mountain". I would guess that those from Ancaster, Dundas, Stoney Creek and "Up the Mountain" have little interest in this project....not to mention the rest of Hamilton which butts up against Cambridge and the 401.

What I have never understood, much like I don't understand the people of Woolwich, why do you care? Not your cash, technically.

nms is right in what he says that about many people viewing spending like this as zero sum, and seeing projects serving "others" as projects that will not happen to serve them. In Hamilton, though, another consideration is that the stroads moving traffic quickly through Hamilton's downtown serve suburbanites well, and their councillors are loth to support anything to fix them. LRT was seen as not only not benefiting suburbanites, not only spending that could have been spent elsewhere, but tying up suburbanites' roads through Hamilton with construction, and then lane reductions.

In 2015, the City (using Metrolinx's "quick wins" pot of money) installed a pilot bus lane for about two kilometres of King Street.

The lane was successful in terms of improving transit performance, minimally impactful on private vehicle speeds, and paid for with money from Metrolinx, but when the time came to keep it, the suburban councillors voted against. Wards one through four (one and two being where the thing was actually located) were in support, and the others (who, viewing the map, have nothing to do with it) opposed. It wasn't even a matter of anyone's commute in a single occupant vehicle being lengthened, just the idea that it could be, that led to the opposition.

OK. So I never gave thought about just how easy it is to travel through Hamilton (down the mountain). Having lived "on the mountain" a part of me was always jealous on how easily you could travel up Main Street or down King St, right up to Gage Park or from Gage Park right to the highway. In thinking of that, you realize just how much people would be inconvenienced during a build that would last several years.

In KW, we're used to slow moving traffic, nothing like Toronto, but we're used to it. Even the worst of times you can escape The Hammer really quickly. That makes sense why there is very little appetite for this LRT, including the downtown and surrounding area.

[MidTowner]

OK. So I never gave thought about just how easy it is to travel through Hamilton (down the mountain). Having lived "on the mountain" a part of me was always jealous on how easily you could travel up Main Street or down King St, right up to Gage Park or from Gage Park right to the highway. In thinking of that, you realize just how much people would be inconvenienced during a build that would last several years.

In KW, we're used to slow moving traffic, nothing like Toronto, but we're used to it. Even the worst of times you can escape The Hammer really quickly. That makes sense why there is very little appetite for this LRT, including the downtown and surrounding area.

Having lived near downtown, walking across the five-lane expressway that is Main Street to get to the nearest grocery store, I was jealous of suburban Hamiltonians (and particularly folks in Dundas and Ancaster) whose neighbourhoods had not been carved up in this manner, and for whose benefit stupidly overbuilt roads like Main, Aberdeen or Victoria (I could go on) exist.

But it's true, accustomed to the free-flowing urban highways as they are, Hamiltonians would have been relatively more sensitive to the impacts of construction.

[jeffster]

OK. So I never gave thought about just how easy it is to travel through Hamilton (down the mountain). Having lived "on the mountain" a part of me was always jealous on how easily you could travel up Main Street or down King St, right up to Gage Park or from Gage Park right to the highway. In thinking of that, you realize just how much people would be inconvenienced during a build that would last several years.

In KW, we're used to slow moving traffic, nothing like Toronto, but we're used to it. Even the worst of times you can escape The Hammer really quickly. That makes sense why there is very little appetite for this LRT, including the downtown and surrounding area.

Having lived near downtown, walking across the five-lane expressway that is Main Street to get to the nearest grocery store, I was jealous of suburban Hamiltonians (and particularly folks in Dundas and Ancaster) whose neighbourhoods had not been carved up in this manner, and for whose benefit stupidly overbuilt roads like Main, Aberdeen or Victoria (I could go on) exist.

But it's true, accustomed to the free-flowing urban highways as they are, Hamiltonians would have been relatively more sensitive to the impacts of construction.

Upper Ottawa and Fennell for me -- took forever to get anywhere, as this was before The Linc (when Limeridge was a useful road). At the time I was working in Cambridge and Mohawk was still the quickest route. Move back to Kitchener in 1995, so happy with our expressway -- but I still miss the 1 way roads down the mountain.

Dundas, though, that was a good place to live. Still is, pretty much it's still the same. Winona is also nice - especially the microclimate that they have (little snow).

[MidTowner]

Upper Ottawa and Fennell for me -- took forever to get anywhere, as this was before The Linc (when Limeridge was a useful road). At the time I was working in Cambridge and Mohawk was still the quickest route. Move back to Kitchener in 1995, so happy with our expressway -- but I still miss the 1 way roads down the mountain.

Dundas, though, that was a good place to live. Still is, pretty much it's still the same. Winona is also nice - especially the microclimate that they have (little snow).

I can honestly say that the one-way streets were a lot of the reason why we worked so earnestly to get back to KW. We couldn't imagine kids walking along Main Street. We liked our neighbourhood a lot, and see a lot of similarities between it and our neighbourhood in Kitchener, but there was a certain feeling of being trapped by those terrible multi-lane arterials with traffic roaring down them.

I've known people who live and garden in Winona. I do miss the relatively balmy weather in the lower city.

Anyway, sorry to everyone else for getting so off-topic. There are big differences between Hamilton and Waterloo Region, and I am pretty hopeful about Phase 2's chances.

[Bob_McBob]

The auditor general is now investigating the province's cost estimate for the Hamilton LRT.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/...-1.5404570

[Bytor]

The auditor general is now investigating the province's cost estimate for the Hamilton LRT.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/...-1.5404570

Whatever came of that?

[danbrotherston]

Looks like the region is seeking input on Cambridge's ION station area planning boundaries.

Unfortunately, I can't really see the website right now, since it looks like engage WR is imploding: https://www.engagewr.ca/regional-officia...tion-areas

But when it comes up, it might be worth commenting, some of the boundaries are very strange. There are properties that back onto the Prestion station which aren't included.

(Edit: And I do mean the site is imploding, I've gotten no less than 4 different error pages from it in the past five minutes).

[creative]

Appears to be working now!

[KevinL]

Keep in mind, the boundaries are for areas with intensification targets - just being near a station or the track doesn't automatically qualify a location.

Also: This discussion should be in the Phase 2 thread.

[danbrotherston]

Keep in mind, the boundaries are for areas with intensification targets - just being near a station or the track doesn't automatically qualify a location.

Also: This discussion should be in the Phase 2 thread.

Yes, please move it there mods, I searched for that thread but couldn’t find it for some reason. 

I think being near a transit station is reason to qualify an area for intensification.  

And AFAIK this is the boundary of the area under consideration, not the final intensification plan which will adjust parts based on deeper look.  Makes no sense to exclude close areas at this stage, IMO

[Bytor]

With the now accepted routing, does anybody else think there should be a Soper Park Station? It's far enough apart from the proposed Delta (1,800+m) and Main (800+m) stations that it would be good, and just linking to parks helps encourage active transportation. That whole stretch of Dundas to Beverly could be redeveloped, and there are a whole bunch of businesses spilling out of the Galt core into that subdivision from Roseview to Dundas in converted houses.

But that area isn't even part of one of the areas under consideration.