Highway 7 - Kitchener to Guelph

[danbrotherston]

They said that the contract would be awarded next year.

That being said investing in transit may could bring the exact same benefits for the economy without the enormous costs associated with continuing to increase automobile dependence and subsidies.

Given what we know about climate change right now, it's immediacy and it's impact on our world, I don't believe ANY road expansion is a good idea right now.

I don't want to improve the economy for the next 5 years, I want there to be a future for my daughter.

[KevinL]

I'd like the Region, Wellington, and Guelph to get together on an overarching transportation study for all the connections between these areas - including Cambridge-Guelph - and how they can be best served not just by roads but by transit in various forms, and active transportation. Nothing off the table, every outside the box option so long as it doesn't cost the Earth. Let's not be limited to what the province pronounces down from on high.

[westwardloo]

This is Great news! Obviously this should have been done years ago. Easy infrastructure project for the government to announce to stimulate the economy in these unprecedented times. All the land was bought up years ago. I understand where danbrotherston is coming from, as i am a huge supporter of green infrastructure (Bike lanes, Public Transit, Etc). I think we will see some green investment as a product of this highway being built. I think the City/ Region should start planning a complete overhaul of Victoria street now that it will no longer be used as a highway. Victoria could become a more attractive urban street by turning it into a boulevard with tree lined medians, reducing the lane width to slow traffic down and maybe rezone a portion the endless strip malls to become mixed use developments. I am more excited about the future potential Victoria street has if HWY 7 is built.

[ijmorlan]

I think we will see some green investment as a product of this highway being built.

We would get more green investment if we simply spent the money on transit and active transportation.

Even for road improvement, a lot can be done for much less money: improve the Conestoga Parkway/Wellington interchange, including the new access roads that are planned. Then improve Shirley Dr. east of Bingeman Centre Dr. and re-work its intersections at either end, so the main flow of traffic is Bingeman’s Centre — Shirley — Victoria. Expand Victoria/Highway 7 to 4 lanes (with turn lanes, of course; and no median crossing except at designated locations) from the existing Grand River bridge to Guelph.

This would give about 80% of the benefit of the expressway for the cost of a road widening/rebuild, including removing through traffic from Victoria south of the tracks.

But no, just like the Scarborough subway, only an expressway is good enough.

[westwardloo]

I do think your solution is an interesting alternative, and could serve as beneficent to reduce some traffic on Victoria. I have my doubts on how many drivers coming from Guelph would exit off Victoria onto Shirley dr. But I guess in this alternative vision they could divert Victoria into Shirley Dr at the BMW dealership to encourage that routing.

At the end of the day I think that this type of investment further serves to interconnect the Guelph and Kitchener economy. I also would not expect the Government to commit to allocate the unused HWY 7 funds to build green infrastructure in KW and Guelph. More likely it would either just not be spent or it would be diverted to the HWY 401 expansion. It is not like the government and the region are not working on green solutions to connect our regions. 2-way all day go is in the books (hopefully it has not been delayed further). They have expressed interest in studying a Cambridge to Guelph GO train connection.

I think this type investment is an accept it or we (the Government) will allocate the funds to another region. Not that I think there is anything to reject. Pretty sure this has approval from all levels of government. Correct me if I am wrong the province has already spent over $60 million purchasing all the required land and $50 million on construction leading up to the hwy which is sunken cost.

We as a region also just built and ambitious LRT that turned out to be a great investment into our urban fabric. Hopefully The region continues to work towards the business cause for phase 2. I don't think having HWY 7 built will stop the region from receiving future provincial funding for that. I think we have been pretty progressive in our investments into green transit options. Obviously we have a lot of work to do when it comes to bike lanes.

Personally I think you can have a balance in the types of transit investment.

I will agree with you on the Scarborough subway though. When I lived in Toronto it was a very frustrating transit development. Although we are taking about $300 million for a decent amount of traffic vs $6 billion for 1 stop.

[danbrotherston]

I do think your solution is an interesting alternative, and could serve as beneficent to reduce some traffic on Victoria. I have my doubts on how many drivers coming from Guelph would exit off Victoria onto Shirley dr. But I guess in this alternative vision they could divert Victoria into Shirley Dr at the BMW dealership to encourage that routing. 

At the end of the day I think that this type of investment further serves to interconnect the Guelph and Kitchener economy. I also would not expect the Government to commit to allocate the unused HWY 7 funds to build green infrastructure in KW and Guelph. More likely it would either just not be spent or it would be diverted to the HWY 401 expansion. It is not like the government and the region are not working on green solutions to connect our regions. 2-way all day go is in the books (hopefully it has not been delayed further). They have expressed interest in studying a Cambridge to Guelph GO train connection.

I think this type investment is an accept it or we (the Government) will allocate the funds to another region. Not that I think there is anything to reject. Pretty sure this has approval from all levels of government. Correct me if I am wrong the province has already spent over $60 million purchasing all the required land and $50 million on construction leading up to the hwy which is sunken cost. 

We as a region also just built and ambitious LRT that turned out to be a great investment into our urban fabric. Hopefully The region continues to work towards the business cause for phase 2. I don't think having HWY 7 built will stop the region from receiving future provincial funding for that. I think we have been pretty progressive in our investments into green transit options. Obviously we have a lot of work to do when it comes to bike lanes.   

Personally I think you can have a balance in the types of transit investment.

I will agree with you on the Scarborough subway though. When I lived in Toronto it was a very frustrating transit development. Although we are taking about $300 million for a decent amount of traffic vs  $6 billion for 1 stop.

Speaking of sunk costs, we're spending like a billion dollars on this highway, we'd better dump hundreds of millions of tons of CO2 into the atmosphere in order to recoup the costs.

There is ALWAYS going to be "just one more project" that's justified. The Earth cannot take the projects we've already done, we need to stop...now...there is no other option.

If the government wants to give this money to another region, I can't stop them, but I can argue against celebrating a decision which invests in more unsustainability.

As for the idea that this highway will spur green development, that's laughable. It is inaccessible by any other means than a car. The ONLY types of development that can occur as a result of this highway is more unsustainable car dominated sprawl. Victoria St. could be improved, not only do I have serious doubts about that, it won't even come close to compensating for the costs of the highway--same with our investments in transit, we don't win by investing in transit, then compromising those investments by building more car dependent car exclusive sprawl...we need a singular bold vision, not compromising junk.

With a climate lens, this project is a bad idea.  It's also a bad idea from an equity and social lens, and frankly, I don't think it looks great from an economic lens either...

The only lens it looks good on is politically for people with no vision.

[ijmorlan]

I do think your solution is an interesting alternative, and could serve as beneficent to reduce some traffic on Victoria. I have my doubts on how many drivers coming from Guelph would exit off Victoria onto Shirley dr. But I guess in this alternative vision they could divert Victoria into Shirley Dr at the BMW dealership to encourage that routing. 

Right, my idea is to divert, so traffic coming into town from Guelph would end up on Bingeman’s Centre Rd. and eventually the Wellington St. bridge over the expressway unless it specifically turned.

I claim my idea would be almost as good for economic integration. According to Google Maps, the distance from the Wellington St. bridge over the expressway to the Hanlon expressway is just under 18km. With improvements short of a full superhighway, it should be possible to do this at 80km/h, which would take just under 15 minutes. With a superhighway, it should be possible to do at 120km/h, which would take just under 10 minutes. So the superhighway saves 5 minutes. Is that really worth what we’re spending?

But realistically my idea is not happening, and as you point out, there has been lots of money sunk already. I guess the land could be sold off, but I don’t think that’s going to happen.

At the end of the day I think that this type of investment further serves to interconnect the Guelph and Kitchener economy. I also would not expect the Government to commit to allocate the unused HWY 7 funds to build green infrastructure in KW and Guelph. More likely it would either just not be spent or it would be diverted to the HWY 401 expansion. It is not like the government and the region are not working on green solutions to connect our regions. 2-way all day go is in the books (hopefully it has not been delayed further). They have expressed interest in studying a Cambridge to Guelph GO train connection.

I think this type investment is an accept it or we (the Government) will allocate the funds to another region. Not that I think there is anything to reject. Pretty sure this has approval from all levels of government. Correct me if I am wrong the province has already spent over $60 million purchasing all the required land and $50 million on construction leading up to the hwy which is sunken cost. 

We as a region also just built and ambitious LRT that turned out to be a great investment into our urban fabric. Hopefully The region continues to work towards the business cause for phase 2. I don't think having HWY 7 built will stop the region from receiving future provincial funding for that. I think we have been pretty progressive in our investments into green transit options. Obviously we have a lot of work to do when it comes to bike lanes.   

Personally I think you can have a balance in the types of transit investment.

I will agree with you on the Scarborough subway though. When I lived in Toronto it was a very frustrating transit development. Although we are taking about $300 million for a decent amount of traffic vs  $6 billion for 1 stop.

[tomh009]

As for the idea that this highway will spur green development, that's laughable. It is inaccessible by any other means than a car. The ONLY types of development that can occur as a result of this highway is more unsustainable car dominated sprawl.

I do think that a less congested highway could also enable better-quality bus service between Kitchener and Guelph.

[danbrotherston]

As for the idea that this highway will spur green development, that's laughable. It is inaccessible by any other means than a car. The ONLY types of development that can occur as a result of this highway is more unsustainable car dominated sprawl.

I do think that a less congested highway could also enable better-quality bus service between Kitchener and Guelph.

Wider highways do not decrease congestion...

Having another route does give more options for running bus service, but if we wanted to make transit more reliable, transit lanes, or a congestion charge would be more effective.

[westwardloo]

Speaking of sunk costs, we're spending like a billion dollars on this highway, we'd better dump hundreds of millions of tons of CO2 into the atmosphere in order to recoup the costs.

There is ALWAYS going to be "just one more project" that's justified. The Earth cannot take the projects we've already done, we need to stop...now...there is no other option.

If the government wants to give this money to another region, I can't stop them, but I can argue against celebrating a decision which invests in more unsustainability.

As for the idea that this highway will spur green development, that's laughable. It is inaccessible by any other means than a car. The ONLY types of development that can occur as a result of this highway is more unsustainable car dominated sprawl. Victoria St. could be improved, not only do I have serious doubts about that, it won't even come close to compensating for the costs of the highway--same with our investments in transit, we don't win by investing in transit, then compromising those investments by building more car dependent car exclusive sprawl...we need a singular bold vision, not compromising junk.

With a climate lens, this project is a bad idea.  It's also a bad idea from an equity and social lens, and frankly, I don't think it looks great from an economic lens either...

The only lens it looks good on is politically for people with no vision.

The Last quoted cost of this project is $300 million mind you that was 2015 $ so lets call it maybe $400 million? $170 million of that has already been spent. 

The point is this hwy will open up Victoria st to potential sustainable redevelopment as it no longer serves as a hwy. Which means a walkable mixed use development, that could provide housing to thousands of residents. all along an express bus line maybe even a new LRT line in the long term future. This hwy actually will not create any urban sprawl that doesn't already exist. The country lane on the east side of the region is pretty locked in place and from what I have discussed with the regional planners they have no interest in moving that boundary.  So in actuality this HWY does have the potential to build a less car dependent nieghbourhood within the city limits. Whether this actually occurs is up to the city and the region, but hopefully someone will realize Victoria st new urban potential once we no longer have cars drive 70km/hr down it.

From an Equity and social lens I would argue that not everyone can afford (or wants) to live in downtown Guelph or Kitchener in the walkable "desirable" neighbourhoods.  A lot of people live in kitchener but work at the auto factories in guelph. As much as I wish transit was a viable option to travel everywhere, it is not. What will take them 10-15mins by car would take 1-2hrs by transit to the manufacturing neighborhoods of guelph and vice versa.

I understand the any road expansion is a bad expansion and for the most part I agree with that statement. I will actual argue for urban road lane reduction to accommodate some separated bike lanes or multi-use paths. 

Personally I think the disconnected subdivisions and endless strip malls in south Kitchener bother me way more environmentally than this hwy. At least with this I can see potential urban benefits from this project.

[SammyOES]

Right, my idea is to divert, so traffic coming into town from Guelph would end up on Bingeman’s Centre Rd. and eventually the Wellington St. bridge over the expressway unless it specifically turned.

I claim my idea would be almost as good for economic integration. According to Google Maps, the distance from the Wellington St. bridge over the expressway to the Hanlon expressway is just under 18km. With improvements short of a full superhighway, it should be possible to do this at 80km/h, which would take just under 15 minutes. With a superhighway, it should be possible to do at 120km/h, which would take just under 10 minutes. So the superhighway saves 5 minutes. Is that really worth what we’re spending?

But realistically my idea is not happening, and as you point out, there has been lots of money sunk already. I guess the land could be sold off, but I don’t think that’s going to happen.

The existing Highway 7 has major development happening along it. It's extremely unsafe in a few places now and will keep getting worse with the hundreds/thousands of new houses being built. It needs new roundabouts / intersections and lower speed limits in places. There's no way that the road can support an average speed of 80km/hour from Wellington St to the Hanlon (and it doesn't now - Google Maps says 18 minutes).

[danbrotherston]

Speaking of sunk costs, we're spending like a billion dollars on this highway, we'd better dump hundreds of millions of tons of CO2 into the atmosphere in order to recoup the costs.

There is ALWAYS going to be "just one more project" that's justified. The Earth cannot take the projects we've already done, we need to stop...now...there is no other option.

If the government wants to give this money to another region, I can't stop them, but I can argue against celebrating a decision which invests in more unsustainability.

As for the idea that this highway will spur green development, that's laughable. It is inaccessible by any other means than a car. The ONLY types of development that can occur as a result of this highway is more unsustainable car dominated sprawl. Victoria St. could be improved, not only do I have serious doubts about that, it won't even come close to compensating for the costs of the highway--same with our investments in transit, we don't win by investing in transit, then compromising those investments by building more car dependent car exclusive sprawl...we need a singular bold vision, not compromising junk.

With a climate lens, this project is a bad idea.  It's also a bad idea from an equity and social lens, and frankly, I don't think it looks great from an economic lens either...

The only lens it looks good on is politically for people with no vision.

The Last quoted cost of this project is $300 million mind you that was 2015 $ so lets call it maybe $400 million? $170 million of that has already been spent. 

The point is this hwy will open up Victoria st to potential sustainable redevelopment as it no longer serves as a hwy. Which means a walkable mixed use development, that could provide housing to thousands of residents. all along an express bus line maybe even a new LRT line in the long term future. This hwy actually will not create any urban sprawl that doesn't already exist. The country lane on the east side of the region is pretty locked in place and from what I have discussed with the regional planners they have no interest in moving that boundary.  So in actuality this HWY does have the potential to build a less car dependent nieghbourhood within the city limits. Whether this actually occurs is up to the city and the region, but hopefully someone will realize Victoria st new urban potential once we no longer have cars drive 70km/hr down it.

From an Equity and social lens I would argue that not everyone can afford (or wants) to live in downtown Guelph or Kitchener in the walkable "desirable" neighbourhoods.  A lot of people live in kitchener but work at the auto factories in guelph. As much as I wish transit was a viable option to travel everywhere, it is not. What will take them 10-15mins by car would take 1-2hrs by transit to the manufacturing neighborhoods of guelph and vice versa.

I understand the any road expansion is a bad expansion and for the most part I agree with that statement. I will actual argue for urban road lane reduction to accommodate some separated bike lanes or multi-use paths. 

Personally I think the disconnected subdivisions and endless strip malls in south Kitchener bother me way more environmentally than this hwy. At least with this I can see potential urban benefits from this project.

If you believe this, I have a bridge to sell you.  Money rules all, when we have invested this money, there will be a very strong argument for capitalizing on it.  Also, the country side line doesn't apply on the Guelph side, there's going to be huge sprawl between KW and Guelph, we already see it in Breslau.  I guarantee you in 40 years, suburbia will be continuous between the two cities.

Nobody is saying everyone can or should live in downtown Guelph or Kitchener, but forcing people to own a car is an equity problem, it is unaffordable for many people, yet, in most places, it is a requirement as you explain. We should be seeking to allow people everywhere to live car free, not increasing the car dependence by building car exclusive highways. The fact that I am wealthy enough to live in an area where I can live car free is kind of the point.

I agree that suburban sprawl is the real problem, but I think you will find that urban sprawl follows highways (both in name like this one, and in form like Homer-Watson).  Building this highway will cause more sprawl, that's the main reason I see to oppose it.

[danbrotherston]

Right, my idea is to divert, so traffic coming into town from Guelph would end up on Bingeman’s Centre Rd. and eventually the Wellington St. bridge over the expressway unless it specifically turned.

I claim my idea would be almost as good for economic integration. According to Google Maps, the distance from the Wellington St. bridge over the expressway to the Hanlon expressway is just under 18km. With improvements short of a full superhighway, it should be possible to do this at 80km/h, which would take just under 15 minutes. With a superhighway, it should be possible to do at 120km/h, which would take just under 10 minutes. So the superhighway saves 5 minutes. Is that really worth what we’re spending?

But realistically my idea is not happening, and as you point out, there has been lots of money sunk already. I guess the land could be sold off, but I don’t think that’s going to happen.

The existing Highway 7 has major development happening along it.  It's extremely unsafe in a few places now and will keep getting worse with the hundreds/thousands of new houses being built.  It needs new roundabouts / intersections and lower speed limits in places.  There's no way that the road can support an average speed of 80km/hour from Wellington St to the Hanlon (and it doesn't now - Google Maps says 18 minutes).

Yes, it does have safety issues, and yes, it does have development.  That's why we should improve the road with a median, and bus lanes in order to shift development to a more sustainable model, while also improving safety, at a far lower cost than building a new expressway.

[SammyOES]

I will add, that IMO it would be nice if we could have a thread on updates for the highway that doesn't end up in the same debate every time. It's a fine/valid debate, it would just be nice if it didn't have to be in the same place as updates get posted because its a bit tired to me.

[panamaniac]

I'd like the Region, Wellington, and Guelph to get together on an overarching transportation study for all the connections between these areas - including Cambridge-Guelph - and how they can be best served not just by roads but by transit in various forms, and active transportation. Nothing off the table, every outside the box option so long as it doesn't cost the Earth. Let's not be limited to what the province pronounces down from on high.

What’s Guelph transit like?