ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit

[Bob_McBob]

504 has been holding for 13 minutes and the CN train apparently still hasn't shown up.

Edit: We're up to 18 minutes now, and 507 has been held at Allen for the last 6 minutes.

Edit 2: And 504 was finally cleared to proceed after a little over 20 minutes, followed shortly by 507. Control never really mentions the location of the CN train.

Edit 3: Around 12:56 near R&T Park, 504 seemed to ask Control about catching up to the freight train, and whether to dwell. Control told him to "pass at 20km/h". Unfortunately someone here started talking really loudly at this point so I'm not sure whether I heard everything properly

[danbrotherston]

504 has been holding for 13 minutes and the CN train apparently still hasn't shown up.

Edit: We're up to 18 minutes now, and 507 has been held at Allen for the last 6 minutes.

Edit 2: And 504 was finally cleared to proceed after a little over 20 minutes, followed shortly by 507. Control never really mentions the location of the CN train.

Is there a possibility that they don't actually know?

[danbrotherston]

Sounds like at the above time they were trying to send CN through but had some glitch with the derail on the line. Heard right now on the scanner they’re holding 504 at Waterloo Public Square to try again

Fair enough, that's different.

[ac3r]

The region owns the spur line and has complete control over scheduling. CN has to wait for authorization from the control centre at the derail every time they run a train. I don't know what specific rules are being followed in terms of LRVs sharing the line with freight. The way they do it right now, 2-3 nights a week the freight train essentially eliminates a scheduled ION trip at a random time between 11pm and midnight.

I had heard about these delays in passing from ION riders, and I finally took the time to check it out on TransSee. On one particularly bad night (Jan 16), 504 was held at Waterloo Public Square for 25 minutes, which meant 510 had to be held at Allen and also ended up 15 minutes late. These delays are slowly made up all the way to Conestoga and back to Fairway because they're so long, but on this night even that wasn't enough, and it really messed up the schedule. Sometimes Fairway-bound LRVs are held at Waterloo Park while the freight train is on the line, but they're released before the Conestoga-bound LRV so it doesn't seem like the freight train has to completely clear Northfield before ION traffic resumes.

I don't know what is a reasonable solution here. I doubt CN would be willing to work within the limited time ION is out of service (~2am to 4:30am), especially if it meant running the train back and forth on subsequent nights. Integrating the train into the schedule would require CN to follow an actual fixed schedule, but right now they basically send a train whenever they feel like it. It seems like they try to keep the LRVs held at Waterloo Public Square for 15 minutes or less so it at least doesn't affect the next trip, but the random nature of CN's scheduling means you simply cannot rely on ION for connections at this time of night, and that is really unacceptable.

I had no idea the region owned the tracks there. Do they own the entire stretch, from where it leaves the mainline all the way up to Elmira?

Since they own it then, they probably could force CN to reschedule their trip if they wanted, but I feel like they would give them some leeway simply because if they are needing these tank cars with chemicals in their yard to be added to a train on the mainline, they'll need to get them there.

[ac3r]

Are there any electric freight in N/A? Certainly there is none in Canada. I think we're all aware that our railroad regs are terribly obsolete compared with other places, so it makes sense that those places have better regs in this context as well.

That being said, I'm not sure breaking it up would help any, I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear that they require both directions to be unpowered before freight proceeds.

As far as I know, you are right about electric freight in North America. I will say that I suspect there probably is some oddball system somewhere, but basically none.

That's correct. There are a couple electric freight lines in North America, but they're mostly small operations/private railroads. Some examples include the Navajo Mine Railroad, Deseret Power Railroad and the very short Iowa Traction Railway. BC Rail used to operate one in the Rockies in British Columbia to serve a coal mine, but it's now abandoned.

[jamincan]

There are a few examples of long freight tunnels out west that were electrified; I think they have all either been closed or had better ventilation installed to allow diesel locomotives to run in them. I believe the Mount Royal Tunnel also used to have freight traffic, although I think it's now only commuter trains.

[ijmorlan]

The original system design had three tracks, with the freight one having a crash wall separating it from the LRV tracks. Basically Transport Canada wants LRVs to be safe even if a freight train derails, and they're not rated for that kind of impact. Perhaps they use the station as a pseudo crash wall, providing isolation between LRV and freight.

You might be right about the pseudo crash wall. I never thought of that.

But what is certain is that this sort of paranoia is completely unnecessary for this particular line. Even if the freight were to derail, which is unlikely on the high-quality, constantly-maintained LRT tracks, at the speeds it goes on this line it would just settle down onto the ballast and sit there, not tip over or send trucks flying across the neighbourhood or into the path of an LRV.

[trainspotter139]

The original system design had three tracks, with the freight one having a crash wall separating it from the LRV tracks. Basically Transport Canada wants LRVs to be safe even if a freight train derails, and they're not rated for that kind of impact. Perhaps they use the station as a pseudo crash wall, providing isolation between LRV and freight.

You might be right about the pseudo crash wall. I never thought of that.

But what is certain is that this sort of paranoia is completely unnecessary for this particular line. Even if the freight were to derail, which is unlikely on the high-quality, constantly-maintained LRT tracks, at the speeds it goes on this line it would just settle down onto the ballast and sit there, not tip over or send trucks flying across the neighbourhood or into the path of an LRV.

When reverse running on the northbound track the crossover for LRVs to rejoin the southbound track is further south of the crossover used by CN freight trains. There would be an exclusive interlocking block that spans both switches and well past them in both directions that can't be occupied by an LRV if the freight train is using freight crossover or the switches won't operate. 

Overhead view for context:
   

[ijmorlan]

When reverse running on the northbound track the crossover for LRVs to rejoin the southbound track is further south of the crossover used by CN freight trains. There would be an exclusive interlocking block that spans both switches and well past them in both directions that can't be occupied by an LRV if the freight train is using freight crossover or the switches won't operate. 

Yes, I am well aware of the layout of the interlocking. As far as I can tell it actually starts at the corner of William/Willow on the freight line and just past the Public Square stop on the LRT, and extends up to near the Perimeter Institute. On the southbound LRT track it appears to end just north of Caroline/Erb.

My point is that southbound LRVs could hold at Seagram until the freight train enters the interlocking, then proceed until they reach the BUR 2S signal and wait there for the freight to clear the interlocking. There is no need for them to hold 600m up the track. Holding at Seagram if they have to wait for the freight to even arrive makes sense because it allows people to get on or off if they want to, but once the freight is on scene it makes sense to proceed closer to the actual point of conflict.

That being said, if they are waiting at Seagram for more than a couple of minutes they should simply set the interlocking to allow the LRV through and have the freight wait for a gap in LRV traffic.

Really there are 2 separate issues: (1) the need for LRT traffic to use a single track while the freight is travelling along the line, and (2) the need for LRT traffic to stop entirely to allow the freight to cross over to its track. The problems with (1) are inherent to running a service more frequent than twice the time to traverse the single track segment, while I suspect the problems with (2) are mostly related to safety paranoia which ignores the fact that there is a difference between a mainline freight train travelling at 100km/h and the small trains travelling on our line at barely more than a jogging speed.

[tomh009]

Another dangerous turn in front of the LRT this morning, in spite of the traffic lights clearly forbidding the right turn due the LRT. LRT driver leaning on the horn, to no effect.

The difference? This time it was a Greyhound bus turning onto Ontario St S and the old bus depot.

[Bob_McBob]

Summarizing my scanner and LRV tracking last night:

23:30 511 instructed to hold at Waterloo Public Square for CN freight.

23:37 Control tells 511 they're "cancelling the freight route" due to a "hiccup".

23:42 511 instructed to proceed, 11:25 behind schedule, and do a "quick turnaround" at Conestoga (the operator walked from one end to the other and immediately departed to maintain the schedule).

~00:00 Control sends someone to check the derail and high/wide sensors in uptown.

00:30 504 instructed to hold at Waterloo Public Square for a second attempt by CN.

00:43 Control asks 504 if they have eyes on CN, and the operator says no. At this point 507 is also holding at Allen, but southbound service on the spur line has ended for the night.

00:50 504 finally authorized to proceed, 20 minutes behind schedule. 507 was released a few minutes later.

00:56 504 asks Control about catching up to the freight train, and whether to dwell at R&T. Control instructs them to "pass at 20km/h". Again, I may have misinterpreted this part due to people talking at home, which is unfortunate since it's a critical detail.

[Bob_McBob]

CN is running a train in a few minutes if anyone cares to listen in.

http://cykf.net/Liveatc/Transit.php

[Bob_McBob]

Tonight's run:

22:58 Control mentions the freight train will be coming through in 7 minutes.

23:10 Control tells 508 (just departing Conestoga) they will be crossing over at Northfield and reverse running to Bauer (the crossover just before Erb and Caroline).

23:13 Line services confirms derail deactivation.

23:16 512 arrives at Waterloo Public Square and asks Control to "cancel the gate" (e.g. allow them to proceed) but Control tells them CN freight will be passing through imminently and they will have to wait.

23:23 Control tells 508 (now at Laurier-Waterloo Park) "you will have aspect at Bauer 2 Sierra crossing over southbound".

23:26 512 is cleared to depart Waterloo Public Square (10:44 behind schedule), right after 508 reaches Willis Way after crossing back over.

23:26 Control warns 506 (just departing Conestoga) they will be held at Northfield.

23:30 506 is held at Northfield.

23:35 506 is simultaneously cleared to proceed southbound from Northfield (5:47 behind schedule) as 512 arrives northbound, meaning CN freight is no longer on the line.

So it would seem reverse running southbound or regular running northbound while CN freight is on the spur line isn't an issue, which explains how an LRV was able to pass it last night. Most of the delay is just waiting for CN freight to get past the derail and interchange as well as ION only having access to a single track for both directions. This can impact up to 4 LRVs if the timing is bad because of all the various holds involved.

[ijmorlan]

Tonight's run:

22:58 Control mentions the freight train will be coming through in 7 minutes.

23:10 Control tells 508 (just departing Conestoga) they will be crossing over at Northfield and reverse running to Bauer (the crossover just before Erb and Caroline).

23:13 Line services confirms derail deactivation.

23:16 512 arrives at Waterloo Public Square and asks Control to "cancel the gate" (e.g. allow them to proceed) but Control tells them CN freight will be passing through imminently and they will have to wait.

23:23 Control tells 508 (now at Laurier-Waterloo Park) "you will have aspect at Bauer 2 Sierra crossing over southbound".

23:26 512 is cleared to depart Waterloo Public Square (10:44 behind schedule), right after 508 reaches Willis Way after crossing back over.

23:26 Control warns 506 (just departing Conestoga) they will be held at Northfield.

23:30 506 is held at Northfield.

23:35 506 is simultaneously cleared to proceed southbound from Northfield (5:47 behind schedule) as 512 arrives northbound, meaning CN freight is no longer on the line.

So it would seem reverse running southbound or regular running northbound while CN freight is on the spur line isn't an issue, which explains how an LRV was able to pass it last night. Most of the delay is just waiting for CN freight to get past the derail and interchange as well as ION only having access to a single track for both directions. This can impact up to 4 LRVs if the timing is bad because of all the various holds involved.

23:16 - I wonder where 508 was when 512 asked to proceed immediately? I can’t tell for sure but it’s entirely possible 508 was already in the single-track segment, meaning somebody would have to wait because of the single track, never mind the freight crossing through Uptown.

23:35 - 506 went on the usual southbound track? I’m just wondering because if 512 had arrived northbound, 506 could have reverse-run on the northbound track.

Thanks for all these details! Very interesting.

[Bob_McBob]

23:16 - I wonder where 508 was when 512 asked to proceed immediately? I can’t tell for sure but it’s entirely possible 508 was already in the single-track segment, meaning somebody would have to wait because of the single track, never mind the freight crossing through Uptown.

23:35 - 506 went on the usual southbound track? I’m just wondering because if 512 had arrived northbound, 506 could have reverse-run on the northbound track.

At 23:16, 508 was just crossing over to reverse run at Northfield, so 512 wouldn't have been able to use the regular northbound track, and I assume the other track was locked out for CN. At 23:35, 506 departed Northfield using the regular southbound track just as 512 arrived on the regular northbound track, so CN must have already switched to the third track and crossed Northfield. I've prepared a highly technical diagram for other people who want to visualize this sequence of events. It would be neat to see this kind of pass in person but it's a total crapshoot what happens every night.