ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit

[plam]

I have previously been sympathetic to the upset of "chumps pay"...but I eventually got over it, I'm far more concerned with having a good service than ensuring everyone pays...I'm much angrier at wealthier people who avoid paying their fair share and wield excessive amounts of power as a result of wealth...at the end of the day, there is little I can do about assholes poor assholes and they've probably suffered enough anyway...I'm quite privileged.

Possibly some fare inspection is beneficial, but there is no need to have fare inspectors be uniformed security guards working in teams (the few bylaw officers we have don't act in teams), on every fourth train I take, it should be commensurate to the crime. I find the current situation entirely inappropriate.

I'm personally not in favour of free transit or of perceived-free-transit because I don't think that leads to the best societal support for transit. It's kind of that thing which I totally hate but seems to be a thing that humans do where only "deserving" people should be worthy (including of not being hit by a person driving a car). I wish that we didn't do that, but I also think that's where society is at.

In the context of fare inspection and penalties, it would seem like the rational level for the penalty would make the expected cost of not paying slightly more than the cost of paying. One could have exceptions for first-time non-payers etc.

There has also been the thing in society where we have more uniformed presence etc. UK border guards didn't used to be uniformed 20 years ago. Now they are.

[danbrotherston]

You are wrong. They are there for safety and security too...  Again youb speak as you are the authority and know all of everything .  It is becoming very tiring seeing your constant rhetoric.

Just because it is in their job description does not mean that's why they are there.

If there was no fare inspection requirement, they wouldn't be there, or in far lower numbers.  Even Charles Terminal only ever hard one or two visible security guards at any time, and it's far larger than one LRT station. I can count on one hand the number of times I saw a security guard outside of Charles Terminal before the LRT, and I see them almost every time I ride now.

[danbrotherston]

I have previously been sympathetic to the upset of "chumps pay"...but I eventually got over it, I'm far more concerned with having a good service than ensuring everyone pays...I'm much angrier at wealthier people who avoid paying their fair share and wield excessive amounts of power as a result of wealth...at the end of the day, there is little I can do about assholes poor assholes and they've probably suffered enough anyway...I'm quite privileged.

Possibly some fare inspection is beneficial, but there is no need to have fare inspectors be uniformed security guards working in teams (the few bylaw officers we have don't act in teams), on every fourth train I take, it should be commensurate to the crime. I find the current situation entirely inappropriate.

I'm personally not in favour of free transit or of perceived-free-transit because I don't think that leads to the best societal support for transit. It's kind of that thing which I totally hate but seems to be a thing that humans do where only "deserving" people should be worthy (including of not being hit by a person driving a car). I wish that we didn't do that, but I also think that's where society is at.

In the context of fare inspection and penalties, it would seem like the rational level for the penalty would make the expected cost of not paying slightly more than the cost of paying. One could have exceptions for first-time non-payers etc.

There has also been the thing in society where we have more uniformed presence etc. UK border guards didn't used to be uniformed 20 years ago. Now they are.

I am not in favour of free transit either. But I don't believe the current situation is positive at all, having a fare inspection can be done without the problems in the current system, and shouldn't be done until our payment system is reliable.  And yes, society has definitely become more militarized and more policed, I do not consider this a good thing, or something we should just accept.

[jeffster]

As to driver enforcement, totally agreed. I have been dismayed by recent articles which seem to be saying that the number of tickets issued in recent years is way down compared to the past. Everything I said about only chumps paying applies to traffic laws too, except that there are usually safety problems with violating traffic laws.

Yep. I seem to be one of the 'losers' or 'chumps' that try to obey traffic laws.

I got my daughter and myself something from Tim Hortons on Ottawa St S across from Fireside. Came out of the driveway towards Homer Watson and we got the red light. I was watching the cars to my right just blow through the red light to make a right turn without even slowing (as Strasburg Rd had not traffic going through, they were turning left onto Ottawa). I think there needs to be more enforcement as driving abilities continue to deteriorate in the region.

[Rainrider22]

More militarized and policed ? Seriously ??? Compared to what ? Anyways your free to your own opinion and that is thanks to military action taken in the past a very long time ago.

[robdrimmie]

More militarized and policed ?  Seriously ???  Compared to what ?  Anyways    your free to your own opinion and that is thanks to military action  taken in the past a very long time ago.

Compared to North America before September 11, 2001. This is not some random thing Dan's made up, there's an entire wikipedia page dedicated to the topic, including a small section focusing on Canada.

The military action you are proud of (justifiably, I am grateful too) was undertaken by the actual military though, not the police. The police should not be undertaking military action of any kind. That's why they're separate occupations.

[Bob_McBob]

You are wrong. They are there for safety and security too...  Again youb speak as you are the authority and know all of everything .  It is becoming very tiring seeing your constant rhetoric.

If Dan's presence on the forum bothers you so much you feel the need to personally attack him over and over again, please make use of the ignore function and let the discussion continue without these comments.

[ijmorlan]

As to driver enforcement, totally agreed. I have been dismayed by recent articles which seem to be saying that the number of tickets issued in recent years is way down compared to the past. Everything I said about only chumps paying applies to traffic laws too, except that there are usually safety problems with violating traffic laws.

Yep. I seem to be one of the 'losers' or 'chumps' that try to obey traffic laws.

I got my daughter and myself something from Tim Hortons on Ottawa St S across from Fireside. Came out of the driveway towards Homer Watson and we got the red light. I was watching the cars to my right just blow through the red light to make a right turn without even slowing (as Strasburg Rd had not traffic going through, they were turning left onto Ottawa). I think there needs to be more enforcement as driving abilities continue to deteriorate in the region.

Are you talking about the situation where people are turning right on red while people making the same turn in reverse (i.e., a left turn) have a green arrow?

If so, that is because they know that there is absolutely no conflicting traffic and therefore no actual need to wait. Fortunately, the Region has noticed this and has started installing right-turn green arrows. Sometimes a behaviour is harmless and the right action is to legalize it, rather than to ramp up enforcement efforts. On a larger scale, we have now finally done this with marijuana.

If you’re talking about a normal right-turn-on-red scenario, then ignore the above. For the safety of everybody but especially people attempting to walk across the street, drivers need to stop and then proceed with extreme care when making a right turn on red (or any other time, but especially on red).

[ijmorlan]

I am not in favour of free transit either. But I don't believe the current situation is positive at all, having a fare inspection can be done without the problems in the current system, and shouldn't be done until our payment system is reliable.  And yes, society has definitely become more militarized and more policed, I do not consider this a good thing, or something we should just accept.

I don’t understand how you think fare inspection should be done.

Depending on how they handle claims of payment system problems, there may or may not be a problem with their current handling of this situation.

I actually agree about the militarization of police in society in general (although much more so in the US than here, as far as I can tell — how many small-town Canadian police forces have LAVs?). However, I fail to see what this has to do with our unarmed fare inspectors. Perhaps if I understood better how you think fare inspection should be done it would be more clear.

[ijmorlan]

In the context of fare inspection and penalties, it would seem like the rational level for the penalty would make the expected cost of not paying slightly more than the cost of paying. One could have exceptions for first-time non-payers etc.

That would require either lots of enforcement, or very high penalties.

Personally, I would rather have lots of enforcement. It projects the image that the transit authority is watching, and the officers can also be helpful in emergency situations and provide information. The fare inspectors with whom I have interacted are very approachable so this isn’t some sort of hypothetical.

It’s all in what they are trained to do and how they are managed. If they’re taught that they are in a war against freeloaders (with a dogwhistled suggestion that it’s mostly the Black or Arabic people who are the freeloaders), given night sticks, and not disciplined when they use the night sticks, you can expect a lot of very bad behaviour. If they’re taught that they are there to serve the public, including by keeping everybody honest but also by being a help when there is an emergency or when somebody has a question, then you will most likely see much better behaviour. Note too that different people will be attracted by these different working environments — I don’t claim that a couple of weeks of training can turn the same person into a violent criminal with a badge, or a helpful tourist ambassador.

[KevinL]

To turn the conversation to a different but still relevant topic, the temporary crossing by Vanier is almost ready to open. I learned earlier tonight, thanks to a Twitter exchange with Tom Galloway, that the Fairway side of the crossing will have no formal infrastructure (such as a path or steps) due to the purchase of the land not being finalized yet. So they will open the fence there, and pedestrians will manage for themselves beyond public property. But at least there will be a designated spot for these crossings, which will reduce the possibility of a tragic outcome.

[Acitta]

Early on after service started, I got on at Conestoga Station. A few stops down, the fare inspectors came on and checked my card. No problem. Then farther down the line, while I was sitting in the same seat that I sat in at Conestoga, more fare inspectors came on and checked peoples cards. I was really annoyed and complained that I had already been checked. It is a good thing that I got off before it happened a third time, because I would have refused and accused them of harassment.

[jason897]

One day I was sitting on board, and near me a wasp was buzzing around the window. The fare inspector came aboard and check my card, then I pointed at the wasp and asked if he was going to check its fare too. His response was “oh geez”....

[kitborn]

Re: Fare Inspectors

Fare inspectors don't need to be uniformed.  They are there to insure that a fare is paid. 

In Hungary, they use plain clothes inspectors that board the train or bus and then put on an arm band indicating they are there to check fares. They have the power to issue tickets.

[ijmorlan]

To turn the conversation to a different but still relevant topic, the temporary crossing by Vanier is almost ready to open. I learned earlier tonight, thanks to a Twitter exchange with Tom Galloway, that the Fairway side of the crossing will have no formal infrastructure (such as a path or steps) due to the purchase of the land not being finalized yet. So they will open the fence there, and pedestrians will manage for themselves beyond public property. But at least there will be a designated spot for these crossings, which will reduce the possibility of a tragic outcome.

Sanity prevails! Now if they could have just clued in faster that it doesn’t need to be “by the book” outside of the LRT right-of-way, this could have been done 3 years ago. Or better still there could have been trails on both sides of the tracks, which would also have eliminated the issue.