King-Victoria Transit Hub

[Spokes]

You're absolutely right, minimums don't apply here.  And they have their own issues.

I get the argument for not having parking there.  If anywhere, it makes sense there.  I just don't think it makes sense, but thats just me.  What's the closest public garage?  Ontario St?

Are the parking minimums zero?  That would be great if they aren't any, but I'd be a little surprised if that was the case.

The nearest parking garage is probably city hall (King/Young), but there are closer public parking lots (King/Francis), which could be developed into garages if needed.  There are also literally a dozen private parking lots which are closer, which again comes to the stupidity of requiring parking for each use in a downtown core...The Kaufman lofts have a huge surface parking lot, that's half empty at the same time a public garage would be half full.

Broadly, as a resident (and taxpayer) it just ticks me off that I look at a giant, mostly empty parking garage (Charles/Benton) all day, while I hear about how much more parking is needed downtown.  I'm not against parking, but there are enormous costs to too much parking, and having parking minimums is achieving exactly that.

Sorry, I didn't mean there weren't any.  I just meant I didn't know why I brought it up since that's not what we were talking about.  I have no idea if they apply.

The lot at Kauffman is usually half empty, but aren't all of the spots owned/spoken for by residents?

[Viewfromthe42]

Kaufman's spots are all tied to individual owners/units. The lot-facing units make it unlikely you could ever take over the whole lot, and there is enough usage that if you wanted to convert the lot, you'd either have to leave a gap to their building and replace all their parking with structured, plus any new structured you wanted for whatever you were building, or take over the entirety of Kaufman, move units to street-facing only, and really redevelop that block. All while also contending with the building at Victoria and Duke.

[danbrotherston]

Are the parking minimums zero?  That would be great if they aren't any, but I'd be a little surprised if that was the case.

The nearest parking garage is probably city hall (King/Young), but there are closer public parking lots (King/Francis), which could be developed into garages if needed.  There are also literally a dozen private parking lots which are closer, which again comes to the stupidity of requiring parking for each use in a downtown core...The Kaufman lofts have a huge surface parking lot, that's half empty at the same time a public garage would be half full.

Broadly, as a resident (and taxpayer) it just ticks me off that I look at a giant, mostly empty parking garage (Charles/Benton) all day, while I hear about how much more parking is needed downtown.  I'm not against parking, but there are enormous costs to too much parking, and having parking minimums is achieving exactly that.

Sorry, I didn't mean there weren't any.  I just meant I didn't know why I brought it up since that's not what we were talking about.  I have no idea if they apply.

The lot at Kauffman is usually half empty, but aren't all of the spots owned/spoken for by residents?

Ahh, sorry, I misunderstood.

Yes, which is telling when it come to the demand for parking--I'm sure the amount of parking was dictated by minimums, albeit those from 10 years ago.  Unfortunately, depending on how the condo corporation is structured, it would likely mean all the unit owners would have to be on board with any change to the parking arrangement.

[Spokes]

Sorry, I didn't mean there weren't any.  I just meant I didn't know why I brought it up since that's not what we were talking about.  I have no idea if they apply.

The lot at Kauffman is usually half empty, but aren't all of the spots owned/spoken for by residents?

Ahh, sorry, I misunderstood.

Yes, which is telling when it come to the demand for parking--I'm sure the amount of parking was dictated by minimums, albeit those from 10 years ago.  Unfortunately, depending on how the condo corporation is structured, it would likely mean all the unit owners would have to be on board with any change to the parking arrangement.

Just because it's half empty doesn't mean it's not all used though right.  It just means not everyone's at home at the same time.

[Canard]

As for zero parking, this seems ridiculous.  I know you hate parking minimums and parking in general, but people drive cars.  That's the reality of our society.  So there should be some parking.  That combined with the fact that that end of downtown could use a public parking garage long term makes this make sense at this location.

This!

People who live in a city, never leave the city, and don't have a car, will never, ever understand this.

The rest of us have family who live in the country, like to explore on weekends, and don't have the luxury of living downtown.

I might be able to agree with "no parking" at CS if there were big park-and-ride lots at the terminus stations of ION, so folks from the country and out-of-town can park there and take the LRT down. But there are not.

[Pheidippides]

Just because you don't own a car doesn't mean you can't drive to the country or explore off the beaten path places.

Rent a car. Join the car share. Car pool.

You can rent a car every weekend of the year and still come out ahead of owning.

[jamincan]

I get that there are all sorts of reasons why we don't need to have parking there, but there are also loads of reasons why we might want parking there, not least of those being to make the transportation options that will be available more viable for people travelling from areas without good transit.

If they were proposing large surface lots, that would be one thing, but the urban fabric would not be ruined by having parking here. Is 1 Victoria hostile to pedestrians? I certainly don't think so.

[Canard]

You can rent a car every weekend of the year and still come out ahead of owning.

I don’t follow the math on that... can you help me out?

Let’s conservatively say you can find a place that will rent you a vehicle all-in for $150 for the weekend (which I don’t think you can). That’s $7 800 a year, and you have to wait for their office to open, do an hour’s worth of paperwork every time... huge inconvienence.

I’ve owned our current car since 2008, we paid cash about $30 000 for it. (Over that same period, you would have paid $78 000 for rentals.)

To make your argument valid, we would have had to spend greater than $48k in fuel and maintenance. In fact, we have spent $12k in fuel (~25k km/year) and about $4k in oil changes, tires, and other basic scheduled maintenance (all other costs). I track this meticulously so I have all this data. Also, this car has lots of life left in it. I expect to have it for another five years at least, if not double that.

Additionally, without a bus pass you couldn’t go anywhere during the week. What’s that, $50/mo? So add another $6k to your $78k.

Off topic, but I needed to expand on your statement.

I’m glad you’ve found a solution that works for you! This one works for me. I guess this is engrained in my brain growing up in rural Ontario - there, without a vehicle you literally can’t do anything.

[danbrotherston]

You can rent a car every weekend of the year and still come out ahead of owning.

I don’t follow the math on that... can you help me out?

Let’s conservatively say you can find a place that will rent you a vehicle all-in for $150 for the weekend (which I don’t think you can). That’s $7 800 a year, and you have to wait for their office to open, do an hour’s worth of paperwork every time... huge inconvienence.

I’ve owned our current car since 2008, we paid cash about $30 000 for it. (Over that same period, you would have paid $78 000 for rentals.)

To make your argument valid, we would have had to spend greater than $48k in fuel and maintenance. In fact, we have spent $12k in fuel (~25k km/year) and about $4k in oil changes, tires, and other basic scheduled maintenance (all other costs). I track this meticulously so I have all this data.  Also, this car has lots of life left in it. I expect to have it for another five years at least, if not double that.

Additionally, without a bus pass you couldn’t go anywhere during the week. What’s that, $50/mo? So add another $6k to your $78k.

Off topic, but I needed to expand on your statement.

I’m glad you’ve found a solution that works for you! This one works for me. I guess this is engrained in my brain growing up in rural Ontario - there, without a vehicle you literally can’t do anything.

Your ownership costs are likely lower than average.  CAA reports the average yearly TCO for a sedan is $9,500: https://www.caa.ca/caa-provides-real-pic...ing-costs/

And I think Pheipdippides comments might have been technically true, but facetious, the point is, just because one does not own a car, does not mean they do not travel outside the city--I travel frequently, but not every weekend.  But I do agree that living downtown is a big part of the reason why I can get by without a car here.  And honestly, it's a challenge even then.

As for convenience, I find it very inconvenient to own a car, I had to deal with all that maintenance myself, I always stressed about what would break next, how much it would cost, whether it would break down when I go on a long trip. For a car share or rental, I just pickup a working car every time with no hassle, and if it breaks down, I have someone else who will deal with most of that--I find it very freeing. And at least for car share, I just book the car in the app, and walk across the street to pick it up (again, a benefit of living downtown--or at least near a car share vehicle).

But please don't mistake my opposition to parking at central station as opposition to parking.  I'm not saying that there shouldn't be any parking--in fact, in a city like ours, I think we should let the market dictate parking in most places, i.e., no parking minimums in most places.

But for central station, we're talking about prime realestate. Building parking has very real costs, both directly, in money to build it, and in opportunity cost.  Every parking stall is 250 sqft of housing, office space, and commercial space that we *don't* build at central station, and I think that building that space at the most convenient location is better than building parking.  I'm not saying there shouldn't be parking, and have discussed several different locations where there exists parking, or where more parking would make sense.

[clasher]

I can't see a lot of people wanting to drive to the mall, then take the LRT to the train station and then take a train somewhere. Most people would rather just drive to wherever they're going since it's almost always faster. I think train service to Toronto and the airport would have to be a lot faster and cheaper before that attitude really changes for people. I wanted to take the train to Ottawa for a week's holiday this summer but it made absolutely no sense compared to how easy it was to just drive there, on top of that I was taking my bike so it's an even bigger hassle.

The land on the corner of Weber and Victoria that's just an empty lot would make a fairly convenient parkade for the new terminal, I'm sure some sort of sheltered sidewalk could be constructed so people don't have to get soaked making the trek along Victoria... or a glass-encased walkway along the tracks would be kind of neat. Or bulldoze 70 Victoria, it's ugly as sin anyway

[Spokes]

I can't see a lot of people wanting to drive to the mall, then take the LRT to the train station and then take a train somewhere. Most people would rather just drive to wherever they're going since it's almost always faster. I think train service to Toronto and the airport would have to be a lot faster and cheaper before that attitude really changes for people. I wanted to take the train to Ottawa for a week's holiday this summer but it made absolutely no sense compared to how easy it was to just drive there, on top of that I was taking my bike so it's an even bigger hassle.

The land on the corner of Weber and Victoria that's just an empty lot would make a fairly convenient parkade for the new terminal, I'm sure some sort of sheltered sidewalk could be constructed so people don't have to get soaked making the trek along Victoria... or a glass-encased walkway along the tracks would be kind of neat. Or bulldoze 70 Victoria, it's ugly as sin anyway

When I was in school in Ottawa I always struggled with this.  I wanted to take the train, but factoring in that there was usually a friend who wanted to come back to KW too, it was always WAY, WAY, WAY cheaper to drive.

If they legitimately want to get people out of cars it has to be (most of the time) cheaper or faster, or both.  Right now it's neither (most of the time).

[tomh009]

I can't see a lot of people wanting to drive to the mall, then take the LRT to the train station and then take a train somewhere. Most people would rather just drive to wherever they're going since it's almost always faster. I think train service to Toronto and the airport would have to be a lot faster and cheaper before that attitude really changes for people. I wanted to take the train to Ottawa for a week's holiday this summer but it made absolutely no sense compared to how easy it was to just drive there, on top of that I was taking my bike so it's an even bigger hassle. 

I would absolutely prefer taking a fast-ish train to downtown Toronto, and not dealing with the traffic and the parking. And also being free to consume some beverages while there.

On the other hand, to visit my in-laws at the border of Toronto and Markham, public transit is super inconvenient, even just the distance from Union Station to Scarborough. And then, once you arrive, almost nothing is within walking distance. So that will remain a driving trip for the foreseeable future.

But then I'm probably not "most people."

[Viewfromthe42]

Just as a quick note on costs (Canard), I can look right now and rent a car 8am Friday to 8am Monday, unlimited kilometers, for under $90 tax included. Not to make any other point about any other aspect, but you can indeed rent quite affordably.

[ijmorlan]

Just as a quick note on costs (Canard), I can look right now and rent a car 8am Friday to 8am Monday, unlimited kilometers, for under $90 tax included. Not to make any other point about any other aspect, but you can indeed rent quite affordably.

Also I think the “every weekend” thing was to make a point — if somebody actually wanted a car every weekend, then owning might make more sense. But lots of people would only need a car one or two weekends a month, at which point the rental costs really won’t be much compared to owning.

[timio]

I like the idea of taking transit to work in Toronto, but the 3 hour end to end travel time makes it a rough go. Yesterday, I left home at 530, arrived at the office at Yonge/Bloor at 840 (train was delayed), left the office at 1505, and arrived home at 1820.

Typically I drive to Aldershot for a 2-2.5 hour trip, or I could drive the entire way in 1.5-3, pending on when I catch the 401 in Mississauga and the Gardiner at the CNE. For people to consistently want to take transit, it needs to be convenient.

Currently it is not and driving is.