ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit

[trainspotter139]

So, any bets on the news ahead of Tuesday?

I'm going with May (2019).

I could see them pitching or proposing that they could be ready by February... but opening in the dead of winter, the first winter/snow that the trains have ever seen (either in testing or in training) sounds like a bad idea*.  Also saying May means there's some padding - if they're ready in April, open in April, and everyone thinks "Yay, early!".  Under-promise, over-deliver.

* - sure, some towing happened in like February, but we didn't see powered testing until the snow left, IIRC.  They haven't had a full snowstorm to deal with and figure out how to make things work properly - they didn't even practice snow clearing last winter, which completely and absolutely blows my mind.

There was some powered testing in Winter. But it was mostly just 502 in the yard. They did practice snow clearing, they needed to to perform the clearance testing.

I can still see it happening for December. Once 511 is done debugging they can open the floodgates and let all the equipped trains out. They 505, 507, & 509 can get theirs installed

[darts]

That really isn't true.

All the other major Ion reports, even controversial ones, like the mode selection, the route selection, the station placement/naming, have all come out beforehand. Unless there is a very good reason for the release of the report to be delayed, e.g. revealing a pending land acquisition, it is really undemocratic too. The Friday to Tuesday window is at least some time for the public to ensure that their councillor knows their views on the report before the vote happens. That they would change their practice now would suggest that it is REALLY bad news, but I hope not.

Regardless of when the report comes out I am expecting mix of good and bad news. The good being being more testing and public events, the bad being a delay in launch.

I hadn't seen that Twitter post until after you mentioned it so that must mean the report is being received in the in-camera portion of the meeting (note that item one on the agenda is "Motion to Reconvene into Open Session") or that report wasn't finished in time to be posted with the rest of the agenda items and is awaiting final details to be firmed up (imagine the nightmare the person who has to schedule Trudeau and Ford to get on the same train to take credit during the opening is going through!).

Also, I noticed this in the finance agenda:

It has been true for most of the previous ION Vehicle updates that they were not on the media release agenda until the morning of the meeting. It has been that way because the local media has, with every vehicle progress report, spun the contents in a negative light. Better to release it the day of than let it percolate in the media cycle for the Friday - Tuesday period. As for the contents, I don't expect any delays. We have 6 (soon to be 7-9) vehicles with equipment installed here, once 511 is done debugging the systems it's full steam ahead with equipment testing and everything will start falling into place quite rapidly. 505, 507 & 509 have been doing operator training (in both daylight and nighttime conditions) and simulated burn-in testing for the past couple of weeks as well in preparation for the ramp-up of testing. 

As for Ford, he has no place being at the opening. His government had no role in funding ION and him being there would be another classic case of the government of the day taking credit for the hard work of a previous government.

So its better to not give citizens the few days to review the report and give feedback to their government representatives? You sound like you support the strategy of not giving people information in a timely manner.

[trainspotter139]

It has been true for most of the previous ION Vehicle updates that they were not on the media release agenda until the morning of the meeting. It has been that way because the local media has, with every vehicle progress report, spun the contents in a negative light. Better to release it the day of than let it percolate in the media cycle for the Friday - Tuesday period. As for the contents, I don't expect any delays. We have 6 (soon to be 7-9) vehicles with equipment installed here, once 511 is done debugging the systems it's full steam ahead with equipment testing and everything will start falling into place quite rapidly. 505, 507 & 509 have been doing operator training (in both daylight and nighttime conditions) and simulated burn-in testing for the past couple of weeks as well in preparation for the ramp-up of testing. 

As for Ford, he has no place being at the opening. His government had no role in funding ION and him being there would be another classic case of the government of the day taking credit for the hard work of a previous government.

So its better to not give citizens the few days to review the report and give feedback to their government representatives? You sound like you support the strategy of not giving people information in a timely manner.

Unfortunately there aren't enough people outside of this bubble that care enough to read reports to council and instead rely on the media coverage of council reports which on the LRT tend to be negatively biased.

[Pheidippides]

I can still see it happening for December. Once 511 is done debugging they can open the floodgates and let all the equipped trains out. They 505, 507, & 509 can get theirs installed

While I appreciate the optimism when I consider that the custom equipment for the other LRVs here in Waterloo started 113 days ago or 79 work days ago (on July 16) I can't imagine how it is possible to meet the December timeline.

Even if they can get the installation to a quarter of the first round of installation time, say 20 days, and work 7 days a week, you are still looking at November 25.

Even if they can finish testing the trackside signals and timing between now and then they would still have to fit in testing all the newly installed specialized equipment, burn-in time, simulated service, and other testing. I could see the remaining Kingston vehicles arriving before year-end, but even that seems unlikely at this point (I think 501 will be the hold up; and even when they remaining trains arrive they will have testing that needs to be done).

Again, I appreciate the optimism, and I hope I am wrong, but I cannot see it opening in December 2018 even with a reduced service level.

[danbrotherston]

We can guess, but we really don't know what parts of testing have been completed so far.  What gives me hope that they can hit a December deadline is that they are still testing weekends.  Grandlinq wouldn't pay staff to come in and work weekends if they didn't still feel that they could hit a December deadline.

[jeffster]

We can guess, but we really don't know what parts of testing have been completed so far.  What gives me hope that they can hit a December deadline is that they are still testing weekends.  Grandlinq wouldn't pay staff to come in and work weekends if they didn't still feel that they could hit a December deadline.

I'm not sure about that. They have hired their drivers, and those drivers need to work, rather than sit home and collect free money. And they might as well as keep testing.

Personally, I don't see this LRT running anytime soon, and my guess is sometime between late spring 2019 and early winter 2020.

[danbrotherston]

We can guess, but we really don't know what parts of testing have been completed so far.  What gives me hope that they can hit a December deadline is that they are still testing weekends.  Grandlinq wouldn't pay staff to come in and work weekends if they didn't still feel that they could hit a December deadline.

I'm not sure about that. They have hired their drivers, and those drivers need to work, rather than sit home and collect free money. And they might as well as keep testing.

Personally, I don't see this LRT running anytime soon, and my guess is sometime between late spring 2019 and early winter 2020.

What basis do you hold that belief?  Launch is imminent, trains are almost here, testing is in full swing.  Unless there was a major failure, trains were defective or specialized equipment didn't work, there is no reason to think that they aren't close to launch in December.  Whether they hit December or not it still should be close.

And it isn't just drivers who are testing, the trains are full of engineers and other highly paid employees who would rather have their weekends off. For that matter, how are drivers paid?

[Pheidippides]

We can guess, but we really don't know what parts of testing have been completed so far.  What gives me hope that they can hit a December deadline is that they are still testing weekends.  Grandlinq wouldn't pay staff to come in and work weekends if they didn't still feel that they could hit a December deadline.

You are assuming that weekend labour costs are greater than weekday costs. It could be that that as long as the shift is scheduled far enough in advance and not in excess of the length of a regular day that it is considered a regular shift and not OT.

[danbrotherston]

We can guess, but we really don't know what parts of testing have been completed so far.  What gives me hope that they can hit a December deadline is that they are still testing weekends.  Grandlinq wouldn't pay staff to come in and work weekends if they didn't still feel that they could hit a December deadline.

You are assuming that weekend labour costs are greater than weekday costs. It could be that that as long as the shift is scheduled far enough in advance and not in excess of the length of a regular day that it is considered a regular shift and not OT.

I am making that assumption, but I don't think it's undeserved.  Again, it *might* not be true for drivers, if they have enough drivers such that none are working more than a five day work week, but I suspect it probably isn't true for the dozen engineers and other auxiliary personnel who are also work on testing the train, who didn't sign up for a weekend job. Construction usually costs more when done on weekends.

[Canard]

So someone will share this magical PDF update prior to Tuesday’s meeting? Yes?

For attending do you just show up a little before 7, and then they let you in after the closed session goes “open” or something like that?

[danbrotherston]

So someone will share this magical PDF update prior to Tuesday’s meeting? Yes?

For attending do you just show up a little before 7, and then they let you in after the closed session goes “open” or something like that?

For attending, yes, you show up at the time the meeting starts, council will be open, I'm pretty sure that the in camera meetings are held elsewhere.

However, the P&W meeting on Tuesday starts at 10:30 AM.  I occasionally listen to it online from work if it's an issue I care about, but I've only ever attended when I have been delegating, otherwise, it just takes too much time out of my day.

I'm not sure if there will be additional materials released before the meeting or not--sadly minutes take a fair bit of time to come out afterwards.

[Pheidippides]

The webcast link is http://www.regionofwaterloo.ca/en/region...bcast.aspx

The webcast has not been working the last few months during upgrades to council chambers, but tomorrow's meeting is on the schedule.

Also keep in mind though that the start time is fluid. If the committe meetings before it are running fast/slow that will change the start time.

The minutes are a bit delayed coming out, but they often republish a revised agenda with the new/changed reports the day of the meeting.

[trainspotter139]

You are assuming that weekend labour costs are greater than weekday costs. It could be that that as long as the shift is scheduled far enough in advance and not in excess of the length of a regular day that it is considered a regular shift and not OT.

I am making that assumption, but I don't think it's undeserved.  Again, it *might* not be true for drivers, if they have enough drivers such that none are working more than a five day work week, but I suspect it probably isn't true for the dozen engineers and other auxiliary personnel who are also work on testing the train, who didn't sign up for a weekend job. Construction usually costs more when done on weekends.

Transport Canada sets a maximum limit that the drivers are allowed to work in any given Day/Week/Month which is why they couldn't do weekend/night testing without breeching those limits. Now that they have enough drivers to do it, they'll be using all those new opportunities to test the line as much as they can.

[trainspotter139]

I can still see it happening for December. Once 511 is done debugging they can open the floodgates and let all the equipped trains out. They 505, 507, & 509 can get theirs installed

While I appreciate the optimism when I consider that the custom equipment for the other LRVs here in Waterloo started 113 days ago or 79 work days ago (on July 16) I can't imagine how it is possible to meet the December timeline.

Even if they can get the installation to a quarter of the first round of installation time, say 20 days, and work 7 days a week, you are still looking at November 25.

Even if they can finish testing the trackside signals and timing between now and then they would still have to fit in testing all the newly installed specialized equipment, burn-in time, simulated service, and other testing. I could see the remaining Kingston vehicles arriving before year-end, but even that seems unlikely at this point (I think 501 will be the hold up; and even when they remaining trains arrive they will have testing that needs to be done).

Again, I appreciate the optimism, and I hope I am wrong, but I cannot see it opening in December 2018 even with a reduced service level.

You are too cynical. The reality is the specialized equipment systems can be completely tested with as little as 6 vehicles equipped with the FIE. While we haven't seen them out yet, we can't just assume that 502-504 aren't completed yet and 514 should be shipping pretty soon which would give us 12 vehicles. They've been using the same 3 vehicles for driver training and simulated burn-in testing for the past 2-3 weeks which to me sounds like 506 and 508 are having their time in the shop. Once the wayside systems are tested, you really just need to apply any changes to the onboard systems to all the vehicles and run them as normal. You could start burn-in and simulated service the day after completing all the FIE testing and then theoretically launch 2 weeks later. If they complete all the FIE testing by the end of November, they can launch in December. At this point any delays should be measured in days or weeks rather than months. 501 could arrive in the middle of December and we would still be able to launch in December.

[Canard]

Ohhhh I thought it was 7pm. Never mind then!

PS, I only posed that question yesterday for fun. I did not intend for people to jump down each other’s throats and start freaking out. (That’s ehy I deleted my post, when I saw where it was headed... sigh.)