ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit

[bgb_ca]

So 504 is the final design then? How are they going to handle this with 501/502? I can see them shipping 501 back but 502?

[trainspotter139]

Semantics, these changes from the region would have been made months ago if Bombardier had delivered something working on time.

Not really. Many of the changes are changes in manufacturing process. others are changes in things like wire organization or better fasteners minor things you wouldn't ever think of when designing the vehicle initially but would improve the quality of life for maintenance workers or make the vehicles require fewer minor repairs because of an inferior fastener. These types of changes only get made after testing the vehicles for extended periods of time. Something Bombardier couldn't do because Metrolinx wouldn't sign on any of the paperwork for the 2 pilots for the longest time.

[trainspotter139]

So 504 is the final design then? How are they going to handle this with 501/502? I can see them shipping 501 back but 502?

Designs are rarely "final". Tweaks are often made to "final" designs to make manufacturing go smoother, make maintenance easier, make things last longer, etc. Most of the tweaks are things that the average person would never see. The majority of tweaks to the design are usually made within the first 50-100 production models manufactured.

[tomh009]

So 504 is the final design then? How are they going to handle this with 501/502? I can see them shipping 501 back but 502?

Designs are rarely "final". Tweaks are often made to "final" designs to make manufacturing go smoother, make maintenance easier, make things last longer, etc. Most of the tweaks are things that the average person would never see. The majority of tweaks to the design are usually made within the first 50-100 production models manufactured.

Similarly, the 100th Boeing 787 is a far, far better airplane than the 10th one off the line.  Boeing had to do extra-heavy discounting in order to find buyers for the "terrible teens", before the 20th plane.

[timc]

This is what everyone wants to see  

I wouldn't mind actually *hearing* it too, instead of musak.

[Canard]

Me too; I've requested the B-Roll. If I get it, I'll post it.

[Bob_McBob]

CTV on the story: "yet another setback", and a nice spot of coverage for the Preston anti-LRT crazies.

http://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId...tPageNum=1

[KevinL]

A surprise during 'substantial completion' - the platform at Frederick is wrapped in tarps. Not sure what's going on within.

[Markster]

CTV on the story: "yet another setback", and a nice spot of coverage for the Preston anti-LRT crazies.

http://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId...tPageNum=1

The "setback" in this case, is referring to the promised 4 units by the end of October.

[trainspotter139]

CTV on the story: "yet another setback", and a nice spot of coverage for the Preston anti-LRT crazies.

http://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId...tPageNum=1

CTV trying to spin the region's decision to delay delivery as Bombardier's fault. 

[KingandWeber]

CTV on the story: "yet another setback", and a nice spot of coverage for the Preston anti-LRT crazies.

http://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId...tPageNum=1

CTV trying to spin the region's decision to delay delivery as Bombardier's fault. 

I hear this argument, but I'm honestly not willing to let Bombardier completely off the hook on this one. Yes, the Region "asked" for this delay. However, the root of the issue is there likely were manufacturing/process issues that have since been ironed out and of course the Region wants those fixes included in the units sitting at Millhaven, even if those units could technically be sent here now and still function. 

I guess my negative sentiment against Bombardier boils down to the fact that it was Bombardier's lateness generally (and having to set up a line at Millhaven in a hurry) that likely contributed to this entire situation. I accept that the Region made the call, but I think there's more to it than that.

[taylortbb]

CTV on the story: "yet another setback", and a nice spot of coverage for the Preston anti-LRT crazies.

http://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId...tPageNum=1

CTV trying to spin the region's decision to delay delivery as Bombardier's fault. 

I'd say it is Bombardier's fault. It's not like the region delayed the vehicles because the region isn't ready for them (unlike say Metrolinx, which does appear to share in the fault). If the region could get fully functional complete vehicles delivered they would have taken them a year ago. The problem is Bombardier wanted to ship vehicles that still needed more work, and the region told Bombardier to get them done before shipping them, and that the region doesn't want to be storage space for incomplete vehicles. I'm pretty sure the original contract for vehicle delivery specified 14 complete vehicles last year, not 14 vehicles that still needed more work.

[trainspotter139]

CTV trying to spin the region's decision to delay delivery as Bombardier's fault. 

I'd say it is Bombardier's fault. It's not like the region delayed the vehicles because the region isn't ready for them (unlike say Metrolinx, which does appear to share in the fault). If the region could get fully functional complete vehicles delivered they would have taken them a year ago. The problem is Bombardier wanted to ship vehicles that still needed more work, and the region told Bombardier to get them done before shipping them, and that the region doesn't want to be storage space for incomplete vehicles. I'm pretty sure the original contract for vehicle delivery specified 14 complete vehicles last year, not 14 vehicles that still needed more work.

502 only needed Grandlinq's work to be able to test it. the only vehicle that needs Bombardier to work on it more is 501. They haven't shipped us any incomplete vehicles since 501. The work that region has asked Bombardier to do on the completed vehicles there is to make the modifications (that Bombardier been making to perfect the overall design and process) to the completed ones in addition to the ones being built. This is so that there is a unified approach to maintaining the vehicles rather than minor differences between the individual vehicles. None of this would even be needed if the Sheppard East LRT wasn't shelved by Rob Ford because the changes would have been made already during the production run of the vehicles for Sheppard East. We have now become the launch customer which means we get the lovely benefit (if you can call it that) of being the guinea pigs.

[taylortbb]

I'd say it is Bombardier's fault. It's not like the region delayed the vehicles because the region isn't ready for them (unlike say Metrolinx, which does appear to share in the fault). If the region could get fully functional complete vehicles delivered they would have taken them a year ago. The problem is Bombardier wanted to ship vehicles that still needed more work, and the region told Bombardier to get them done before shipping them, and that the region doesn't want to be storage space for incomplete vehicles. I'm pretty sure the original contract for vehicle delivery specified 14 complete vehicles last year, not 14 vehicles that still needed more work.

502 only needed Grandlinq's work to be able to test it. the only vehicle that needs Bombardier to work on it more is 501. They haven't shipped us any incomplete vehicles since 501. The work that region has asked Bombardier to do on the completed vehicles there is to make the modifications (that Bombardier been making to perfect the overall design and process) to the completed ones in addition to the ones being built. This is so that there is a unified approach to maintaining the vehicles rather than minor differences between the individual vehicles. None of this would even be needed if the Sheppard East LRT wasn't shelved by Rob Ford because the changes would have been made already during the production run of the vehicles for Sheppard East. We have now become the launch customer which means we get the lovely benefit (if you can call it that) of being the guinea pigs.

Given that 503/504 still need more work to make them the same as the later vehicles I'd consider that incomplete, until then they're basically beta units. Functional beta units, but still beta (and therefore incomplete). I certainly agree that if the TTC hadn't cancelled Transit City then they'd have been the beta customer, and we wouldn't be, but that doesn't excuse Bombardier's delay. Timelines for delivery are supposed to include the beta testing phase.

At my work if we tell a customer we're delivering their product by X date and we only have a beta on X date, we don't get to say we met our timeline, even if the beta does most of what the customer wants.

[trainspotter139]

502 only needed Grandlinq's work to be able to test it. the only vehicle that needs Bombardier to work on it more is 501. They haven't shipped us any incomplete vehicles since 501. The work that region has asked Bombardier to do on the completed vehicles there is to make the modifications (that Bombardier been making to perfect the overall design and process) to the completed ones in addition to the ones being built. This is so that there is a unified approach to maintaining the vehicles rather than minor differences between the individual vehicles. None of this would even be needed if the Sheppard East LRT wasn't shelved by Rob Ford because the changes would have been made already during the production run of the vehicles for Sheppard East. We have now become the launch customer which means we get the lovely benefit (if you can call it that) of being the guinea pigs.

Given that 503/504 still need more work to make them the same as the later vehicles I'd consider that incomplete, until then they're basically beta units. Functional beta units, but still beta (and therefore incomplete). I certainly agree that if the TTC hadn't cancelled Transit City then they'd have been the beta customer, and we wouldn't be, but that doesn't excuse Bombardier's delay. Timelines for delivery are supposed to include the beta testing phase.

At my work if we tell a customer we're delivering their product by X date and we only have a beta on X date, we don't get to say we met our timeline, even if the beta does most of what the customer wants.

You seem to fail to understand how the manufacturing process works for new products like these. These are complete real products. Not beta versions. Not incomplete versions. Fully assembled, fully functional vehicles. The only beta versions are Metrolinx's pilots. Metrolinx was supposed to be the beta customer long before even Shepard East was even supposed to be running. Rob Ford cancelled Shepard East, then Metrolinx took over the plan, then Metrolinx delayed the plan to beyond 2021, then Metrolinx refused to sign a single piece of paper related to their pilots for stupid reasons meaning our finished products ended up having to act like pilots even though they were never intended to. Our order wasn't supposed to be anywhere near the beta testing phase.