Grand River Transit

[dunkalunk]

We now have duplicate Route 8 signs with no destination signage. This specific issue is short term, however I can see more than a few people getting on the wrong branch of other loop routes if the signing convention persists. Image doing this on Route 22. You've suddenly just wasted an hour. Or worse, Route 8 at Charles St Terminal.

[timc]

New vs. Old and the truck that was blocking bays while changing them during rush hour.

dis gon b gud

Does the temporary sign at the bottom have something to do with it?

[KevinL]

The signage actually IS correct here - but it used to show '7 Weber'. That is, it goes east on Fairway to go up Weber towards downtown. The bus sign then shows what route it takes beyond downtown, in this case C to Conestoga.

That 'east on Fairway to go up Weber towards downtown' bit is also known as the 7B on a southbound sign. They've repurposed it in the opposite direction.

And if all of that is too much, well, that's the route 7 alphabet soup for you.

[ijmorlan]

The signage actually IS correct here - but it used to show '7 Weber'. That is, it goes east on Fairway to go up Weber towards downtown. The bus sign then shows what route it takes beyond downtown, in this case C to Conestoga.

That 'east on Fairway to go up Weber towards downtown' bit is also known as the 7B on a southbound sign. They've repurposed it in the opposite direction.

And if all of that is too much, well, that's the route 7 alphabet soup for you.

The sign on the stop should always match the sign on the bus.

In any case, the route 7 letters are one-way: there is no such thing as a southbound bus labelled 7C, for example. The 7C goes to Conestoga mall, then turns around and is labelled either just plain 7 if it is terminating at Charles St. terminal, or one of the Fairview-bound letters otherwise. Whether a southbound bus on King at Weber is “really” a 7C is a question of interest only to those who actually run the system and should not be evident to riders, who care only where the bus is going, not where it is coming from. There is a reason why some normal programming languages have a “goto” command but no (normal) languages have a “come from” command.

[KevinL]

The sign on the stop should always match the sign on the bus.

In any case, the route 7 letters are one-way: there is no such thing as a southbound bus labelled 7C, for example. 

Precisely. There is no such thing as a northbound 7B, either. And yet there it is, on a sign at the southern terminus...

[ijmorlan]

The sign on the stop should always match the sign on the bus.

In any case, the route 7 letters are one-way: there is no such thing as a southbound bus labelled 7C, for example. 

Precisely. There is no such thing as a northbound 7B, either. And yet there it is, on a sign at the southern terminus...

I just realized this is at Fairview, not at the downtown terminal. But now I’m confused by your earlier message where I thought you said the sign was correct. To me it seems like signs at Fairview for the 7 should list 7C, 7D, 7E only; or they could just say “7” since most people getting on there won’t care which one they get (anybody who cares is probably better off taking the iXpress).

[KevinL]

It's correct in that the way it leaves the southern part of the route is by the 7B's direction along Weber. The old sign said '7 Weber', avoiding the lettering confusion.

[panamaniac]

Word is that the detailed information for the 2015 improvements/changes will be published tomorrow.
They were briefly published on GRT's site, and even had a facebook post about them, but they have since been pulled.  Presumably they weren't quite finished with them!

I look forward to the rampant debates here!

You mean ridership numbers?

[PhilippAchtel]

Precisely. There is no such thing as a northbound 7B, either. And yet there it is, on a sign at the southern terminus...

I just realized this is at Fairview, not at the downtown terminal. But now I’m confused by your earlier message where I thought you said the sign was correct. To me it seems like signs at Fairview for the 7 should list 7C, 7D, 7E only; or they could just say “7” since most people getting on there won’t care which one they get (anybody who cares is probably better off taking the iXpress).

Unless you change the way the buses enter and exit the Fairview terminal, this isn't possible. As the buses are currently routed, the Connaught/Wilson 7s always depart facing Kingsway, while the Weber 7s always depart facing Fairway. This is for good reason, because that is the direction those buses need to go to get onto those streets.

The fact is that many, many people at the Fairview terminal need to know whether the bus is going down Wilson, Connaught or Weber. In fact, you have it exactly backwards. If a passenger is interested in a C D or E in particular, taking a 200 and switching at Charles St. will frequently get them to their destination faster. If on the other hand, they need to go to, say, Weber/Fergus, telling them the bus is a C D or E after it departs north from Charles St. does not give them useful information at all.

People already ask which flavour of 7 they are boarding. Having a 7C sit at a stop labelled 7B will just compound the confusion.

This will all be cleared up when the Wilson and Weber portions are replaced by other routes, but by that time, there won't be a 7B at all. That makes the decision to label the stops 7B and 7A/F at Fairview even more mind-boggling.

[ijmorlan]

I just realized this is at Fairview, not at the downtown terminal. But now I’m confused by your earlier message where I thought you said the sign was correct. To me it seems like signs at Fairview for the 7 should list 7C, 7D, 7E only; or they could just say “7” since most people getting on there won’t care which one they get (anybody who cares is probably better off taking the iXpress).

Unless you change the way the buses enter and exit the Fairview terminal, this isn't possible. As the buses are currently routed, the Connaught/Wilson 7s always depart facing Kingsway, while the Weber 7s always depart facing Fairway. This is for good reason, because that is the direction those buses need to go to get onto those streets.

The fact is that many, many people at the Fairview terminal need to know whether the bus is going down Wilson, Connaught or Weber. In fact, you have it exactly backwards. If a passenger is interested in a C D or E in particular, taking a 200 and switching at Charles St. will frequently get them to their destination faster. If on the other hand, they need to go to, say, Weber/Fergus, telling them the bus is a C D or E after it departs north from Charles St. does not give them useful information at all.

People already ask which flavour of 7 they are boarding. Having a 7C sit at a stop labelled 7B will just compound the confusion.

This will all be cleared up when the Wilson and Weber portions are replaced by other routes, but by that time, there won't be a 7B at all. That makes the decision to label the stops 7B and 7A/F at Fairview even more mind-boggling.

I think everything you say makes sense. Part of the problem is that I had forgotten that the 7 splits up near Fairview, so I wasn’t thinking about that aspect. So I think what you’re saying is that somebody boarding at Fairview doesn’t care about 7C/D/E, but they do care whether it goes via Wilson or via Weber. So maybe the stops should be labelled either “7” or “7C/D/E”, with one stop saying “via Wilson” and the other “via Weber”. In any event, I think we’re in agreement on the radical notion that a bus labelled X should stop at a stop labelled X.

I have long (since before iXpress) though that the 7 should just pop on to the expressway to get from where Charles and King meet down to Fairview. Then have a local milk run handle all the stuff currently handled by the 7 that would be skipped by my idea. The 7 was painful for getting to Fairview — the last bit of King St. tended to be not too bad in the speed department, and then you’re at the expressway, maybe a 2 minute ride from Fairview. Then the bus turns off and winds through a residential neighbourhood for 10 minutes. And this is the main spine route that runs the length of the city?

The introduction of iXpress was an alternative way of providing a reasonably fast route to Fairview, but I’m not sure it invalidates my idea. In any case as you point out something different will be done soon.

[PhilippAchtel]

Yeah, to be honest, the 7 is really a mess of a route as is. You have buses with labels that aren't even relevant until they branch off at King/University 45 minutes later. Connaughts and Wilsons depart from the same platform at Fairview, but there is no way to tell the difference by looking at the label on the bus.

Even using letters at all is confusing for people new to the system. Does this bus go to Connestoga Mall? The stop I'm at just says "7", but the bus coming says "7E". Oh, wait, I'm supposed to wait at the "7" stop at King/Columbia, not the "7" stop at Columbia/King?

With the possible exception of people downtown being able to directly access stops on Wilson, things will be much better when the 7ABF is busted up into the 7, 18, and 2, and when the 7DE becomes the 92.

[timio]

Even using letters at all is confusing for people new to the system. Does this bus go to Connestoga Mall? The stop I'm at just says "7", but the bus coming says "7E". Oh, wait, I'm supposed to wait at the "7" stop at King/Columbia, not the "7" stop at Columbia/King?

My first experience with GRT not long after moving to KW ended up with me expecting the 7E, allowing the 7D to pass me, running 1/4 of the way around Ring Road at UW only to find out that the bus I wanted was the 7D and 7E didn't run on Sundays, eventually getting onto an 8 on University, and then transferring at Charles Street to the exact 7D bus that had passed me at UW 45 minutes earlier.

This was 2003.  Not much has changed about route 7, apart from frequency, since then.

[KevinL]

Noticed new vehicles in use for BusPLUS - an electronic destination sign, front bike rack, and a ramp for accessible access, not a lift!

[trainspotter139]

Noticed new vehicles in use for BusPLUS - an electronic destination sign, front bike rack, and a ramp for accessible access, not a lift!

Yep those are the new ARBOC Spirit of Freedom vehicles the region ordered.

[Rick O'Shay]

http://www.grt.ca/en/schedules-maps/bus-...rades.aspx
Looks like a busy summer for upgrades