General Road and Highway Discussion

[panamaniac]

Over/Under on how long the land will sit vacant?
I'm going to guess at least 4 years.

Seems reasonable, although you might be a bit ambitious.  Temporary park, perhaps? 

[MidTowner]

From the Record: Region won’t talk tolls after Toronto endorses the idea

That's kind of a shame. It's probably not be something appropriate for us right now, but no one should dismiss it outright. What if a toll of a couple of bucks on the expressway wound up one day making the difference between needing to widen it at high cost in the future, or not? And municipalities do need more revenue tools.

I think that the Region of Waterloo should be very interested in the province allowing Toronto to implement tolls, and should add their voice (along with other municipal governments) to the call for that. One day, we might want to use them here, too. We shouldn't dismiss it flippantly.

[SammyOES2]

I don't think I like tolls as a way to fund road-related infrastructure*. It feels like the gas tax is more appropriate. Easier to administer and generally more fair because all roads can be covered instead of just a few high volume ones.

* I think there are other uses where they might be appropriate. Things like decreasing congestion, encouraging public transportation, etc.

[MidTowner]

The gas tax is less than perfect. There’s insufficient political will anywhere to raise them- Ontario is about to celebrate the 25th anniversary since last raising it, on January 1. That’s not a function of a gas tax itself, obviously.

But it’s not entirely fair. Battery electric vehicles (a trivial number now, but growing) pay no gas tax, but are heavy and thus do disproportionate damage to our roads. Drivers of older, less fuel-efficient vehicles pay more per kilometre (which might be desirable for other reasons, but not if you want to use gas taxes to cover road maintenance).

Tolls probably aren’t a lot more difficult to administer now that we have new technologies available, and they don’t necessarily mean slowing cars down so their drivers can throw coins in a basket. In addition to raising revenue, you’re right that they are a congestion management tool.

[SammyOES2]

I don't think introducing road tolls have significantly more political will than raising the gas tax.

I think discriminating based on fuel efficiency* is better than discriminating on the roads you need to drive on. And yes, we can do better than coin baskets, but its still a non trivial undertaking to install and maintain the technology, have a way to notify and collect from drivers, and enforce non-compliance.

* I also think due to the fact that we're not paying for all of the externalities of driving, and thats correlated to the fuel efficiency of your vehicle, its actually pretty fair to charge more to less fuel efficient vehicles. But I own a hybrid, so, maybe I'm baised.

[Canard]

Me too! What do you drive Sammy? Gen3 Prius here (and a diesel smart - the lowest fuel consumption of any non-hybrid/EV ever sold in Canada).

[Canard]

I am very much in favour of either penalties to higher consumption or incentives for lower consumption.

I like the incentive route over the penalty route because it seems "nicer" but if you drive a Hunmer, you don't care that Volt drivers get a kickback and just keep being dirty.

[MidTowner]

I don't think introducing road tolls have significantly more political will than raising the gas tax.

I think discriminating based on fuel efficiency* is better than discriminating on the roads you need to drive on. And yes, we can do better than coin baskets, but its still a non trivial undertaking to install and maintain the technology, have a way to notify and collect from drivers, and enforce non-compliance.

* I also think due to the fact that we're not paying for all of the externalities of driving, and thats correlated to the fuel efficiency of your vehicle, its actually pretty fair to charge more to less fuel efficient vehicles. But I own a hybrid, so, maybe I'm baised.

Fair point about the political opposition to road tolls. I’m not sure which would be easier, raising the gas tax or implementing congestion charges. In Ontario, we’ve done a little bit of the latter, but neglected to raise the gas tax since 1992.

I think the other question is what the gas tax is actually for. If it’s supposed to price the externalities of using gasoline, I guess it’s not a bad tool for that, but then other types of fuel which have those externalities aren’t captured by it. If it’s supposed to fund the roads people are driving on, it’s destined to fail as more vehicles which are just as heavy or heavier start using the roads without burning gasoline.

Of course, it’s not a question of one or the other. Gas taxes are not paying for the entire costs of the roads we build and maintain, let alone paying for any other externalities to driving (respiratory diseases, traffic fatalities, on and on). If there is a road funding shortfall, user fees for those roads seems like a good way to cover it, while also promoting the efficient use of those roads.

[danbrotherston]

@SammyOES2 @MidTowner

The issue with only tolling one road is probably valid.  My answer to that is a CBD congestion charge.  Of course, that probably makes less sense in Waterloo Region where our CBD is fragile to begin with, and not terribly congested.

But in general, road tolls have the benefit of directly pricing the resource, which helps prevent overconsumption.  Right now the policy in WR seems to be meet any demand at any cost.  I.e., spend as much as needed to widen roads so that we don't suffer congestion.  This policy works here for the moment, but it doesn't work in Toronto due to space and financial constraints.  We'll get there, but not before it's a wasteland of lanes and parking.  We need to change our policies before then, and I do think there is movement away from this policy.  But I'm more in favour of pricing parking first.  I'd really like to see a "no free parking anywhere (except maybe your own house)" policy.

[NotStan]

From the Record: Region won’t talk tolls after Toronto endorses the idea

That's kind of a shame. It's probably not be something appropriate for us right now, but no one should dismiss it outright. What if a toll of a couple of bucks on the expressway wound up one day making the difference between needing to widen it at high cost in the future, or not? And municipalities do need more revenue tools.

I think that the Region of Waterloo should be very interested in the province allowing Toronto to implement tolls, and should add their voice (along with other municipal governments) to the call for that. One day, we might want to use them here, too. We shouldn't dismiss it flippantly.

Slightly different situation.  Here the expressway is a provincial highway (actually a number of them), while in Toronto the city owns the DVP and the Gardiner.  So its really not up to the cities or the region whether a toll is put on the expressway because it's not theirs, while in Toronto it shouldn't really be up the province if the city wants to charge a fee to people using a city asset.  I do recognize that enabling legislation is required for the Toronto tolls to happen, but fundamentally its not much different than city owned libraries charging a fee for people to take out books or city owned pools charging a fee for people to swim.

[SammyOES2]

Canard - I drive a pretty old Hybrid Civic. It's the lame hybrid. To be honest, my main motivation at the time was that it made sense with Government incentives (it wasn't bought in Ontario) but its not that much more efficient than a regular old Honda Civic.

MidTowner - I hear what you're saying about other types of vehicles. But I still look at it as a toll road is catching a much smaller percentage of all drivers than a gasoline tax. And I think that will be the case for the foreseeable future (barring implementing an area toll like Dan mentions or a much faster uptake in non-gasoline vehicles). You could also find ways to charge those other people (extra registration fees or taxes, surcharge on electricity for electric car owners, etc.), although its definitely complicated and there are a lot of factors to consider.

Dan, I'm also fine with CBD congestion charges where they make sense. But to me its more about managing congestion than funding the infrastructure.

I'm pretty against "no free parking anywhere". I think you're dis-incentivizing the wrong thing and punishing the wrong people. Especially in this day and age of online shopping and next-day delivery. Similar to tolls, I think paid parking mostly makes sense as a way to manage usage. I think in our case it probably makes more sense to encourage a few easy-to-get-to parking locations and then make the CBD really easy for pedestrians to get around from those locations and from public transportation. It feels like we're moving in this direction?

[MidTowner]

NotStan, Yes, you're very right. If we were ever to consider tolls on the Expressway, we would have to ask the provincial government not only for tolls, but to keep (some of?) the revenue raised by them. Or ask for the expressway to be downloaded to the regional municipality, I guess, which would be a pretty imprudent thing to do...

[danbrotherston]

Dan, I'm also fine with CBD congestion charges where they make sense.  But to me its more about managing congestion than funding the infrastructure.

I'm pretty against "no free parking anywhere".  I think you're dis-incentivizing the wrong thing and punishing the wrong people.  Especially in this day and age of online shopping and next-day delivery.  Similar to tolls, I think paid parking mostly makes sense as a way to manage usage.  I think in our case it probably makes more sense to encourage a few easy-to-get-to parking locations and then make the CBD really easy for pedestrians to get around from those locations and from public transportation.  It feels like we're moving in this direction?

I agree about congestion charges.

As for parking, the problem is, when malls have free parking, there's a huge push towards free parking everywhere.  And as we know, parking isn't free, everyone still do pay for it, but we pay for it in the goods we buy, so in fact, everyone who arrives on transit (or as a pedestrian/cyclist) subsidize those who drive.  That seems rather backwards.

[SammyOES2]

Looking at just malls, they're private companies operating in a way that maximizes their profit (presumably).  Parking is part of their cost of business, and something they've presumably decided is worth the cost overall.  I don't think its reasonable that we should tell them that parking isn't a cost they can pass on to their consumers.  And going even further, the pedestrians/transit users would still probably be hurt by "no free parking" as less profit for the business means a bunch of other negative things will happen (including some % going out of business).*

But in a bigger sense, I don't really agree with your general attitude about it.  Any complex system will have examples like you're talking about.  I keep my thermostat pretty low in the Winter and generally find malls unbearably hot.  I don't think its reasonable for me to complain that I'm having to subsidize the heating costs that are passed on to consumers.


* And this argument still applies to things like Government owned parking uptown.  Making it harder for businesses to stay in business has a lot of negative effects for everybody (including pedestrians/transit users).  This is a similar argument I make to drivers about public transit.  Just because you don't plan on using it directly, doesn't mean there aren't positive benefits to you.

[MidTowner]

I agree about congestion charges.

As for parking, the problem is, when malls have free parking, there's a huge push towards free parking everywhere.  And as we know, parking isn't free, everyone still do pay for it, but we pay for it in the goods we buy, so in fact, everyone who arrives on transit (or as a pedestrian/cyclist) subsidize those who drive.  That seems rather backwards.

Are you suggesting forcing private land owners to charge parking fees? I don't think that's possible. I agree with you that it's backwards that non-car-driving patrons subsidize the purchases of driving patrons, but I don't see a solution (besides patronising business who do not do that).

I find it really absurd that parking spaces maintained by the public are provided free of charge. I prefer the principle of user pay. I'd prefer that principle with roads, too, though I understand there are a lot of limitations.