GRT to Airport?

[plam]

One of the motivating factors for choosing our airport is the quickness of it. I've left work near Conestoga mall, and by the time turned into the airport property, it was less than 10 minutes to park, pay for parking, return slip to car, get ticket from (sadly departed) Bearskin, get through security. So I could realistically plan to be at the airport for 20 minutes before my flight with more buffer and still have no issue. Suddenly, though, you need to be at a particular bus station 1.5h before your flight, plus travel time to that station, and it's not a compelling situation. It's probably not *just* cost that sees the dedicated transit service to our busiest airport (Pearson) from our most highly populated core (downtown Toronto) get barely used. Ottawa has an easy extension of the 97 route (kind of like our iXpress) that goes to the airport, and even at busy times, it's hardly used. It's just not all that successful a service in all but the busiest and most professionally integrated cities and transit systems.

I think Toronto could have a successful transit service to the airport. Many cities do, and I don't think they have to be busiest. Boston and Montreal both do. I remember reading that Montreal's 747 bus significantly reduced taxi business when it launched (in the last 10 years).

[Canard]

I would love for their to be a bus loop that somehow could justify going out there, but I just am not sure how it could work. Maybe if there was one that went out Victoria, went through downtown Breslau, then popped out onto Fountain to pass right by the airport anyway and then head down Fairway.

I just can't see them justifying running busses out there every hour or whatever for one or two people. It's not viable. If there was a bunch of industry right by the airport it might make it more palpable.

The issue of time saving though is one that can't be forgotten: if it takes you an hour on transit to get to YKF, you may as well drive to YYZ (if time is your primary reason for flying from home).

But maybe bus service would be a catalyst for development too?

[tomh009]

The issue of time saving though is one that can't be forgotten: if it takes you an hour on transit to get to YKF, you may as well drive to YYZ (if time is your primary reason for flying from home).

For time savings, YKF only works (in general) if there is a direct flight to your destination: once you add a connection, it dwarfs the additional driving time.  It's the same reason I fly to SFO to get to silicon valley rather than SJC.  (And, yes, there would be exception in cases where there is a connection from YYZ as well.)  Unfortunately the number of direct flights is still fairly limited, so the number of passengers (for flights and for transit) will also be fairly small.

[clasher]

One of the motivating factors for choosing our airport is the quickness of it. I've left work near Conestoga mall, and by the time turned into the airport property, it was less than 10 minutes to park, pay for parking, return slip to car, get ticket from (sadly departed) Bearskin, get through security. So I could realistically plan to be at the airport for 20 minutes before my flight with more buffer and still have no issue. Suddenly, though, you need to be at a particular bus station 1.5h before your flight, plus travel time to that station, and it's not a compelling situation. It's probably not *just* cost that sees the dedicated transit service to our busiest airport (Pearson) from our most highly populated core (downtown Toronto) get barely used. Ottawa has an easy extension of the 97 route (kind of like our iXpress) that goes to the airport, and even at busy times, it's hardly used. It's just not all that successful a service in all but the busiest and most professionally integrated cities and transit systems.

I think Toronto could have a successful transit service to the airport. Many cities do, and I don't think they have to be busiest. Boston and Montreal both do. I remember reading that Montreal's 747 bus significantly reduced taxi business when it launched (in the last 10 years).

Toronto has the 192 Airport rocket bus that leaves from Kipling subway station and they recently decided to go ahead with the Eglinton Crosstown LRT extension to the airport so that'll be fantastic when it opens.

[curious_look]

The issue of time saving though is one that can't be forgotten: if it takes you an hour on transit to get to YKF, you may as well drive to YYZ (if time is your primary reason for flying from home).

For time savings, YKF only works (in general) if there is a direct flight to your destination: once you add a connection, it dwarfs the additional driving time.  It's the same reason I fly to SFO to get to silicon valley rather than SJC.  (And, yes, there would be exception in cases where there is a connection from YYZ as well.)  Unfortunately the number of direct flights is still fairly limited, so the number of passengers (for flights and for transit) will also be fairly small.

You are all assuming driving is a viable (and the default) option. I don't own a car and I fly 4-5 times a year. Yes, I have wonderful friends who will drop me/pick me up from YKF and even YYZ on occasion - but if i'm landing in the middle of a workday that isn't an option. I often take transit from YYZ because you can't cab back and there is often little difference in timing between airways transit and GO so might as well go with a schedule and less $$. What I don't really understand is why it costs so much to cab to YKF - this and the lack of transit is what really ruins the convenience factor for me.

[ookpik]

You are all assuming driving is a viable (and the default) option. I don't own a car...

+1

I thought the transportation strategy is to encourage less reliance on cars.

Re the added time compared to driving, people who drive or take GO/Airways Transit, etc. have to factor in at least 3 hours to YYZ in order to leave contingency for the almost-daily traffic SNAFUs on Hwy401. If you're prepared to do that then why can't you factor in at least an hour to get to YKF by transit? It's still a much shorter and more reliable option.

[tomh009]

Re the added time compared to driving, people who drive or take GO/Airways Transit, etc. have to factor in at least 3 hours to YYZ in order to leave contingency for the almost-daily traffic SNAFUs on Hwy401.

Leave three hours before flight time?  Yes, outside the 401 morning rush hour that's a very reasonable thing to do, it will usually get you to YYZ about two hours ahead of the flight, and an hour ahead of the check-in deadline (with carry-on and online check-in there is even more time to spare).
At YKF, Westjet (or AA) check-in deadlines are the same as YYZ (and same as AC at YYZ) so from most places in K-W, you'd want to leave 1.5-2h before the flight, depending on your destination, so that's a time savings of 1-1.5h.  (By comparison, a connection at ORD will easily add more than 2h to your itinerary.)
This applies whether driving yourself, taxi, limo or (if you can schedule it well) Airways Transit.

[nms]

Thanks for the replies. I guess there isn't demand for it, but I am surprised to learn there is no bus service to Breslau (which would naturally serve the airport as others have pointed out). It is not out of the way.

We don't have area-rating for transit within the cities, but we do have it for the townships. So there is some politics involved in adding or increasing transit service to a township that there wouldn't be for a neighbourhood within the city.

This is why the Region should move away from area-rating and roll all transit spending into one, Region-wide levy (or portion of your tax bill).  Otherwise, any service extension would be met with the usual arguments against having a levy added to the tax bill.  Instead, the Region could simply roll out transit changes based needs and service priorities rather than by which ratepayers are likely to complain the least if there is fee added to their tax bill.  Can you imagine how the WRPS would have evolved if any service improvement into one of the Cities or Townships included the need to convince residents that they needed to pay extra for this service while their neighbours in the next Township didn't need to?

[plam]

For time savings, YKF only works (in general) if there is a direct flight to your destination: once you add a connection, it dwarfs the additional driving time.  It's the same reason I fly to SFO to get to silicon valley rather than SJC.  (And, yes, there would be exception in cases where there is a connection from YYZ as well.)  Unfortunately the number of direct flights is still fairly limited, so the number of passengers (for flights and for transit) will also be fairly small.

You are all assuming driving is a viable (and the default) option. I don't own a car and I fly 4-5 times a year. Yes, I have wonderful friends who will drop me/pick me up from YKF and even YYZ on occasion - but if i'm landing in the middle of a workday that isn't an option. I often take transit from YYZ because you can't cab back and there is often little difference in timing between airways transit and GO so might as well go with a schedule and less $$. What I don't really understand is why it costs so much to cab to YKF - this and the lack of transit is what really ruins the convenience factor for me.

I'd say that more often than not I don't drive my personal car to YYZ (I don't especially like to pay for parking). The taxi to YYZ is a reasonable option, as is GO for mid-morning departures. Getting back from YYZ is not great.

You are right that YKF is not so convenient to get to without a car. I have biked there (but not to get onto a flight).

[BuildingScout]

I'd say that more often than not I don't drive my personal car to YYZ (I don't especially like to pay for parking). The taxi to YYZ is a reasonable option, as is GO for mid-morning departures. Getting back from YYZ is not great.

You are right that YKF is not so convenient to get to without a car. I have biked there (but not to get onto a flight).

Is taxi to YKF also not a reasonable option? any idea what the average fare would be, say from the Charles St. terminal?

[Pheidippides]

Perhaps an interim solution could be to add special runs, just like some routes already have special Sunday service or late-night loops, of the current 204 (Highland/Victoria) and the future 205 (Ottawa) using Victoria, Fountain, Fairway, and Lackner to coincide with the Calgary and Chicago arrivals and departures.

I suspect that GRT will be shedding light on its future direction with an updated business plan shortly; the last one was 2011-2014 (they did pretty well at meeting their goals).

[SammyOES]

A bus service to Breslau would be great, but it's just not going to have significant demand. People that live in Breslau have a car and it's fairly convenient to drive most places. A crappy infrequent bus service just isn't going to be a good option the majority of the time.

It's similar to the airport. Driving to YKF is really easy and parking is convenient and not ridiculously priced. The majority of people coming to the airport will just drive rather than drag luggage on a bus. And with the relatively few commercial flights there just won't be demand to justify a route.

10-15 years from now it might be a totally different story. There'll be a lot more teenagers in Breslau (who might love a bus that connects them with the LRT), more people in general, hopefully a go station to entice non car-families to move to the area, more flights, etc.

In general though I think transit money is better spent building a really good core service that encourages people to use it regularly and as a way of life. And then building that service outwards. A Breslau/airport route would just be a waste of money and something for anti-transit people to point to.

[zanate]

Given the infrequent air service at the airport and the cheap parking, there's not a lot of call in my mind for regular bus service out there. So long as taxi trips to YKF are still significantly cheaper than a ride to Pearson, they're going to be the preferred choice for most people flying out who don't want to take their car.

I have not, personally, tried to catch a taxi from YKF into town, though. Do people tend to see taxis waiting at the airport? Do they pay attention to arrival schedule? Or do they simply serve it when called?

[Markster]

Having flown Bearskin and Westjet out of YKF:

WestJet has enough passengers, that there is a line of taxis already waiting to pick up fares.
Bareskin, which was operating a 24 seat plane, asked us at boarding if we needed a taxi at YKF, and called in the appropriate amount.

[SammyOES]

That's some quality customer service!

Edit: I don't know why more companies don't do things like this. Its a very small amount of extra effort but I think leaves a relatively big impact on customers.