General Politics Discussion

[Momo26]

That begs the question, do folks need to be in person to be 'working'? I think you hit nail on head with 'seen as' . It's perception.

I think there are certainly pros and cons. It's been discussed already and lots of articles on the subject.

For our Region, we know the streets are already congested as heck esp during rush hours. So there's that aspect too.

[MidTowner]

I work with a lot of provincial employees, and by all accounts, compliance with the current three-day-a-week in-office requirement is very low. It's true that, in many offices at least, they have to book desks and desk space is insufficient. But the actual system appears to be very flexible hybrid, so I don't think complaints about the miserable conditions are entirely valid.

Ideally (in my mind), employees would commit to certain days in office, and stick to them; employers would try to make offices pleasant places to be; and everyone interested would push for better land use, and more transit and active transportation to make commutes better.

[danbrotherston]

I have genuine reservations against remote work and I think it has larger societal and personal costs that remote work enthusiasts don't really have answers for. I think a hybrid approach makes the most people happy between the two extremes of fully remote vs 100% on-site.

BUT: The employers who have gone the hardest into return-to-work policies have been the ones who have been trying their hardest to make workplaces miserable. It sounds like in many offices you don't even have a desk anymore - you have to reserve them and hop around the office like some kind of cubicle rental. Why do they want people to come back to work and experience the "team building environment" when workplaces are becoming more anti-human over time?

There's also something really quite perverse about the Suburban NIMBY-in-Chief (Ford) forcing people back into commuting while ranting about traffic and congestion and bike lanes at the same time. And making it impossible to plan communities where you can live near your workplace. I think it's true that The Public™ needs to believe that public servants are working and can be seen to be working, but I have no faith that Ford is the guy to manage any of that.

(paraphrased) "several banks including TD have mandated 4 days back in the office."

The irony of this is fucking palpable. Before the pandemic, TD (the bank I worked for) was spending considerable effort to reduce the time in office, in order to decrease the real-estate costs. They redesigned their office for a much higher density as well (making it rather uncomfortable IMO). They in fact forbid workers in the office from coming in more than 3 days a week. This was pre-pandemic.

Honestly, people are different. Some want to be in an office, some don't, there is no one right answer for everyone. The only interesting discussion is how much it costs (not economic cost, but in ephemeral costs) to be flexible an allow different team members to optimize their schedules for themselves, of how much they want to be in the office. And this probably depends a great deal on the manager, as well as the team dynamics.

But to me, these continual "back in office" pushes are just conservatism at it's worst. "Things have changed, and I don't like it, so stop it, and go back to the way it was before."

[creative]

One observation that I have made since the move to work from home is that there are a lot more people out and about in cars during the traditional work day.

[Joedelay Highhoe]

Pros and cons for sure. It's good for commercial real estate. Good for city centers and restaurants near office buildings. DTK has certainly suffered. Some industries probably benefit from human interaction. Others don't. Not great for traffic. I never got to work from home, so I'm biased, but I like going into work.

[danbrotherston]

Pros and cons for sure. It's good for commercial real estate. Good for city centers and restaurants near office buildings. DTK has certainly suffered. Some industries probably benefit from human interaction. Others don't. Not great for traffic. I never got to work from home, so I'm biased, but I like going into work.

I don’t actually think it’s good for downtown. Like 9 to 5 workers don’t actually make for a lively healthy downtown. Yes it might be worse without them in the short term, but focusing on a healthier mix of uses is a better long term strategy.

[creative]

When my son worked at Shopify in Ottawa, he and his coworkers often went out together after work. Not being from Ottawa, these were his new found friends. He mentioned that the restaurants and bars that they frequented after work were often busy. With so many downtown tech workers receiving lunch brought in, and city workers allowed to leave once they completed their required work hours. Local Kitchener restaurants downtown at that time started to decline.

[bravado]

I think there's more to it than just the revenue from $30 salads downtown or whatever. Not having a physical work place is genuinely eroding people's friend circles, making us more insular, and robbing new young employees the chance of actually meeting people and learning + networking. If you're an established worker who doesn't need much of these non-monetary benefits of working, remote work is an amazing option. For everyone else, I think the costs to their career and personal development can be quite large.

Again, I know that modern offices barely even have a free water cooler at this point - but I think there is something genuinely valuable about physically separating work vs home. I think it has personal costs that vary in severity with each individual.

[KevinL]

Again, I know that modern offices barely even have a free water cooler at this point

Which is a real tragedy - I remember when tech firms bragged about catered lunches and luxurious snack selections.

[Acitta]

I know someone in her late 60s who works for a company based in Waterloo but lives in Calgary, winters in Mexico and periodically visits her elderly mother in Waterloo, where she might pop into the office for a meeting. She has done this for many years.

[Kodra24]

Well we have to make a distinction between private and public - let's face it, there is a VAST productivity gulf between most private and public employees, you could probably cut 50% of the workforce and no one would notice, it's become so bloated

One of the few moves Ford has gotten right lately

[dtkvictim]

Well we have to make a distinction between private and public - let's face it, there is a VAST productivity gulf between most private and public employees, you could probably cut 50% of the workforce and no one would notice, it's become so bloated

One of the few moves Ford has gotten right lately

Do we need to make that distinction? Are private and public sector employees somehow fundamentally different that WFH affects their productivity differently (whether positively or negatively)?

And is there supposed to be any coherent through argument to this post? You seem to be randomly conflating productivity, bloat, over-staffing, and RTO with each other.

And it's especially rich to give Ford credit for RTO somehow magically addressing productivity and bloat when 1) the massive increases in public sector size that you might call bloat have been federal (not relevant here), and 2) it's almost impossible to not see and feel the effects of provincial public sector cuts and underfunding on a near daily basis - something he should be addressing.

[SammyOES]

My biggest concern with Fords whole mandate thing is that it’s one more example of how politicization of a non-political issue, team sportsmanship, and executive meddling is severely hurting our country (and let’s not even mention down south…).

WFH should be an organizational issue based on the context and needs of a specific organization, team, and role. It’s neither good or bad. It’s just a working arrangement that sometimes makes sense and sometimes doesn’t. Let the people running these organizations make the calls and then judge them on their results.

This idea that our political team has to have a strong take on everything and then use their power to make sure their take wins - is absolutely terrible. And it’s getting much worse.

[SammyOES]

I think there's more to it than just the revenue from $30 salads downtown or whatever. Not having a physical work place is genuinely eroding people's friend circles, making us more insular, and robbing new young employees the chance of actually meeting people and learning + networking. If you're an established worker who doesn't need much of these non-monetary benefits of working, remote work is an amazing option. For everyone else, I think the costs to their career and personal development can be quite large.

Again, I know that modern offices barely even have a free water cooler at this point - but I think there is something genuinely valuable about physically separating work vs home. I think it has personal costs that vary in severity with each individual.

I loved working in an office when young and my friend group very much grew from my work life.

I also loved working from home (well before Covid) once I had a family and how much easier it made it to spend quality time with my family and my friends (who were not particularly connected with my current employment and were more related to being in the same life state as me).

When I was young my networking and career progression was very much focused on my current place of work. And so being physically present was very valuable. When I was further along in my career much of my networking and career progression was external to my current employer and working from home made that easier.

All this to say, early in my career working in the office was overall beneficial to me in many ways. But later in my career it would have absolutely been detrimental (both personally and professionally).

Doesn’t make one or the other right or wrong. Just different and something every employer and employee should figure out for themselves. Tons of trade offs here and no clear right answers, imo.

[SammyOES]

Well we have to make a distinction between private and public - let's face it, there is a VAST productivity gulf between most private and public employees,

Cite?

I’ve been in small companies and large. Public and private. Would love to see the data here. Anecdotally what I have seen are that, people are people. And when someone thinks a person isn’t doing anything, more often then not, they just don’t understand the actual role they are talking about.