Bus Megathread

[danbrotherston]

So I was on an electric bus for the first time today. It was a rather interesting experience, it was remarkably quiet and pleasant, no diesel smell, generally a great experience in that way.

It was a somewhat harsh ride though. Buses are already bumpier and more erratic in motion than a tram or train, and generally you'll want a seat. This was even more extreme though. The amount of torque or acceleration this bus had was significantly more than the diesel buses I'm used to and it made standing on the bus even more difficult. It was kind of surprising.

This obviously isn't a necessary feature of electric buses and could also be just mitigated with a less aggressive driver, but it was surprising.

That said, it was still a great trip, my daughter even called it a roller coaster so, she had fun too. And honestly being able to have a conversation with someone at the back of the bus was a huge plus.

All in all, I still agree that improving the service of a bus system is more important than converting it to electric, but converting it to electric absolutely has pluses outside of environmental considerations.

[plam]

Yeah. Trains are still better (and LRT > BRT) but not having a diesel smell and noise is a big win.

[ac3r]

When we actually examine EV buses in detail you come to the natural conclusion: they really do suck.

They're quite terrible for the environment in a long list of ways that'd take too long to get into. The companies that make them are awful, many having gone bankrupt although that holds true for personal EV manufacturers as well. They're terrible depending on your geographic reason, with anything from hills to temperature rendering them pretty worthless. They wear the road down even more than regular buses due to the intense weight of them. They're a pain to maintain because while anyone can work on a traditional engine, few people understand or could work on (in some cases, possibly even legally!) an EV. The cost of parts is just ridiculously high, which matters lots because buses see a lot of wear and tear.

In mid-late 2024, GRT/RoW came to the obvious conclusion that EV buses are trash and thankfully aren't going to switch over to them. Some may argue that this is just RoW being stupid, but for once they aren't. Electric vehicles are just terrible, whether it's an entire bus or a ride on lawn mower.

[plam]

When we actually examine EV buses in detail you come to the natural conclusion: they really do suck.

They're quite terrible for the environment in a long list of ways that'd take too long to get into. The companies that make them are awful, many having gone bankrupt although that holds true for personal EV manufacturers as well. They're terrible depending on your geographic reason, with anything from hills to temperature rendering them pretty worthless. They wear the road down even more than regular buses due to the intense weight of them. They're a pain to maintain because while anyone can work on a traditional engine, few people understand or could work on (in some cases, possibly even legally!) an EV. The cost of parts is just ridiculously high, which matters lots because buses see a lot of wear and tear.

In mid-late 2024, GRT/RoW came to the obvious conclusion that EV buses are trash and thankfully aren't going to switch over to them. Some may argue that this is just RoW being stupid, but for once they aren't. Electric vehicles are just terrible, whether it's an entire bus or a ride on lawn mower.

Diesel is even worse, though. There is something to be said for buses powered by electric wires as in Vancouver.

ebikes are definitely not terrible. Small electric cars aren't bad either. We just don't need to be making SUVs.

[danbrotherston]

When we actually examine EV buses in detail you come to the natural conclusion: they really do suck.

They're quite terrible for the environment in a long list of ways that'd take too long to get into. The companies that make them are awful, many having gone bankrupt although that holds true for personal EV manufacturers as well. They're terrible depending on your geographic reason, with anything from hills to temperature rendering them pretty worthless. They wear the road down even more than regular buses due to the intense weight of them. They're a pain to maintain because while anyone can work on a traditional engine, few people understand or could work on (in some cases, possibly even legally!) an EV. The cost of parts is just ridiculously high, which matters lots because buses see a lot of wear and tear.

In mid-late 2024, GRT/RoW came to the obvious conclusion that EV buses are trash and thankfully aren't going to switch over to them. Some may argue that this is just RoW being stupid, but for once they aren't. Electric vehicles are just terrible, whether it's an entire bus or a ride on lawn mower.

Diesel is even worse, though. There is something to be said for buses powered by electric wires as in Vancouver.

ebikes are definitely not terrible. Small electric cars aren't bad either. We just don't need to be making SUVs.

"few people understand or could work on an EV"

:eyeroll:

ebikes are literally a world changing technology...small electric cars and EV buses are a status quo maintaining technology. Both are important to fighting climate change...but in neither are actually being used in North America, ironically, ebikes maybe more.

[ijmorlan]

They're a pain to maintain because while anyone can work on a traditional engine, few people understand or could work on (in some cases, possibly even legally!) an EV.

Too bad there is no way to increase the number of people who understand something. Oh well.

[ac3r]

Diesel is even worse, though. There is something to be said for buses powered by electric wires as in Vancouver.

ebikes are definitely not terrible. Small electric cars aren't bad either. We just don't need to be making SUVs.

It's pretty bad indeed. I think hybrid buses offer a good balance. Though yes, any electric buses we use should be powered by electric wires. At least that's a technology we've had around for a good century already.

Ebikes are pretty useful. It's EVs that are still a shit technology. There's a reason people don't want them. Consumers know they exist, but they know how crap they are too.

"few people understand or could work on an EV"

:eyeroll:

ebikes are literally a world changing technology...small electric cars and EV buses are a status quo maintaining technology. Both are important to fighting climate change...but in neither are actually being used in North America, ironically, ebikes maybe more.

Roll your eyes all you want, they're complex machines. A diesel engine is not.

Neither are important for fighting climate change, but I know it is a waste of time with you to go into the nuances of iron/copper/aluminum/etc mining, sand extraction, rare earth mineral mining, battery disposal, more frequent road replacements, switching over our whole power grid to renewables to power them and so on. Plus, dealing with them after they quickly become ewaste is another huge problem. As it stands, we just find big empty fields to fill with thousands upon thousands of useless ebikes and EVs. The battery disposal is even messier.

They're a world changing technology that's for sure.

Too bad there is no way to increase the number of people who understand something. Oh well.

Of course there is and I hope we can actually train more Canadian citizens to understand how to work on these sort of vehicles. I also hope we can somehow legislate the guaranteed right to repair them, too. As it stands, it's pretty damn hard to truly fix your own EV due to the technical complexities and the manufacturers of them don't really want you to anyway. Look at the mess Tesla had over the years in regards to this.

Anyway, I say we just bring back good ol' trolleybuses. Those are MUCH more environmentally friendly than anything the whole EV scam can offer us.

[bravado]

1: Public transit money is (shamefully) scarce. I say buy whatever technology gets us more transit per dollar. Either way, a diesel bus full of 30 people is objectively better than 30 EVs on the road.

2: People with grudges against EVs are truly weird, they're just cars with a different drivetrain. "The market" has not decided that they are shit, because they're still not available and still arbitrarily expensive.

3: People who insist on fixing their cars themselves are calling out their age - this is a fundamentally alien concept to anyone born after 1985 and will just keep getting more alien over time. DIY repair stopped being a thing after the first gen NA Miata and is not a relevant argument in favour of gas cars in any way in 2025.

I'd love a world where we didn't have to drop 5-digits a year to maintain a depreciating asset, gas or electric, but until public transit gets funding without begging every year that will never happen. If anti-EV people were truly against more e-waste and battery disposal and rare-earth mineral mining, they'd be working hard to make transit viable... but they generally aren't.

[Acitta]

1: Public transit money is (shamefully) scarce. I say buy whatever technology gets us more transit per dollar. Either way, a diesel bus full of 30 people is objectively better than 30 EVs on the road.

2: People with grudges against EVs are truly weird, they're just cars with a different drivetrain. "The market" has not decided that they are shit, because they're still not available and still arbitrarily expensive.

3: People who insist on fixing their cars themselves are calling out their age - this is a fundamentally alien concept to anyone born after 1985 and will just keep getting more alien over time. DIY repair stopped being a thing after the first gen Miata and is not a relevant argument in favour of gas cars in any way.

It is hard to get a bunch of cars on blocks into your one bedroom condo these days.

[Rainrider22]

Diesel is even worse, though. There is something to be said for buses powered by electric wires as in Vancouver.

ebikes are definitely not terrible. Small electric cars aren't bad either. We just don't need to be making SUVs.

It's pretty bad indeed. I think hybrid buses offer a good balance. Though yes, any electric buses we use should be powered by electric wires. At least that's a technology we've had around for a good century already.

Ebikes are pretty useful. It's EVs that are still a shit technology. There's a reason people don't want them. Consumers know they exist, but they know how crap they are too.

"few people understand or could work on an EV"

:eyeroll:

ebikes are literally a world changing technology...small electric cars and EV buses are a status quo maintaining technology. Both are important to fighting climate change...but in neither are actually being used in North America, ironically, ebikes maybe more.

Roll your eyes all you want, they're complex machines. A diesel engine is not.

Neither are important for fighting climate change, but I know it is a waste of time with you to go into the nuances of iron/copper/aluminum/etc mining, sand extraction, rare earth mineral mining, battery disposal, more frequent road replacements, switching over our whole power grid to renewables to power them and so on. Plus, dealing with them after they quickly become ewaste is another huge problem. As it stands, we just find big empty fields to fill with thousands upon thousands of useless ebikes and EVs. The battery disposal is even messier.

They're a world changing technology that's for sure.

Too bad there is no way to increase the number of people who understand something. Oh well.

Of course there is and I hope we can actually train more Canadian citizens to understand how to work on these sort of vehicles. I also hope we can somehow legislate the guaranteed right to repair them, too. As it stands, it's pretty damn hard to truly fix your own EV due to the technical complexities and the manufacturers of them don't really want you to anyway. Look at the mess Tesla had over the years in regards to this.

Anyway, I say we just bring back good ol' trolleybuses. Those are MUCH more environmentally friendly than anything the whole EV scam can offer us.

I concur, well said.. Most people have no idea what ti take to make the batteries.  And no one wants to have the real discussion, how will we produce all this electricity and deliver it....

[bravado]

We should produce electricity with new nuclear and renewables, because growth is good. Do you think we are incapable of building and generating new power or something?

The future requires a lot of power, regardless of how many EVs we will have at any given time. Any sane government should be building more sustainable capacity at all times.