Taxation and the middle class

[ijmorlan]

 Also I’d like to see the occasional discussion of “we’d like to do this for all of us, but we have to pay for it so we’re proposing the following tax increase” rather than the usual lying about increasing government services while putting money back in our pockets.

You'd like a tax increase? Really?

If it pays for something worthwhile, obviously, and so do enough others that we keep electing governments that provide services to the people (and taxing us to pay for them).

[tomh009]

 Also I’d like to see the occasional discussion of “we’d like to do this for all of us, but we have to pay for it so we’re proposing the following tax increase” rather than the usual lying about increasing government services while putting money back in our pockets.

You'd like a tax increase? Really?

Some things are worth paying, are they not?

[plam]

You'd like a tax increase? Really?

If it pays for something worthwhile, obviously, and so do enough others that we keep electing governments that provide services to the people (and taxing us to pay for them).

My overall provincial/federal tax rate is 27% on a quite good salary. Yes, I would like a tax increase, rather than this bonkers Ontario thing where people think that they can not pay taxes and yet still receive services. Or, they defer the infrastructure deficit to later generations.

[Bytor]

 Also I’d like to see the occasional discussion of “we’d like to do this for all of us, but we have to pay for it so we’re proposing the following tax increase” rather than the usual lying about increasing government services while putting money back in our pockets.

You'd like a tax increase? Really?

Yes. How do you propose we properly pay for public infrastructure?

At the municipal level we've got more than a century's worth of infrastructure repairs that need to be done if we continue at the current rate, not accounting for any new infra that will also age out, too. Why? because we've had decades and decades of voters wanting property tax kept as low as possible.

Conservative politicians like Doug Ford using the idea of keeping the taxes low, or even cutting them, as a way to hide the "starve the beast" strategy being used on healthcare, education, and government services as a way to get people to accept privatization.

That attitude is a neoliberalist cancer, a relative of "trickle down" and blind worship of Adam Smith's "invisible hand", all of which have spread further than they should have.

[ijmorlan]

If it pays for something worthwhile, obviously, and so do enough others that we keep electing governments that provide services to the people (and taxing us to pay for them).

My overall provincial/federal tax rate is 27% on a quite good salary. Yes, I would like a tax increase, rather than this bonkers Ontario thing where people think that they can not pay taxes and yet still receive services. Or, they defer the infrastructure deficit to later generations.

I agree, except that it’s not just an Ontario thing

[tomh009]

Conservative politicians like Doug Ford using the idea of keeping the taxes low, or even cutting them, as a way to hide the "starve the beast" strategy being used on healthcare, education, and government services as a way to get people to accept privatization.

That attitude is a neoliberalist cancer, a relative of "trickle down" and blind worship of Adam Smith's "invisible hand", all of which have spread further than they should have.

I do wonder whether Doug Ford's reading repertoire is really quite that extensive. 🙂

[nms]

A lot of the government energy that inspired big things after the Second World War can be traced to the desire to avoid the turmoil that immediately followed the First World War, plus the fear that not looking after the population at large could lead to, among other things, communism. Interestingly, that same post-war period also inspire many private and community "big ideas" that still exist today. Rather than complaining that everything was broken, people simply got things done.

As a thought exercise, if some of the wealth that is currently parked in the 1% were sent to the public purse in some way, how much of the infrastructure and programming backlog could be fixed?

On a similar note, the Mulroney government introduced the GST (now HST) which went a long a way towards bringing new revenue into federal coffers. The Trudeau government introduced the carbon tax as means to pay for the desperately needed climate resiliency (and other environmental damages). When the Chretien Liberals were elected, they promised to get rid of the GST, but here it is more than 30 years later. Once challenge for the Polievre Conservatives will be how to replace the lost revenue if they follow through on their promise to remove the carbon tax. After 40+ years of cost-cutting and asset selling, there really isn't much left to do that won't be problematic.

[ijmorlan]

As a thought exercise, if some of the wealth that is currently parked in the 1% were sent to the public purse in some way, how much of the infrastructure and programming backlog could be fixed?

It’s not quite that simple. If you could extract $1 trillion from wealthy people, that wouldn’t magically create more trained construction workers. But if the point is that our society has lots of resources and should be able to accomplish big things, then that is definitely true.

On a similar note, the Mulroney government introduced the GST (now HST) which went a long a way towards bringing new revenue into federal coffers.  The Trudeau government introduced the carbon tax as means to pay for the desperately needed climate resiliency (and other environmental damages).  When the Chretien Liberals were elected, they promised to get rid of the GST, but here it is more than 30 years later.  Once challenge for the Polievre Conservatives will be how to replace the lost revenue if they follow through on their promise to remove the carbon tax. After 40+ years of cost-cutting and asset selling, there really isn't much left to do that won't be problematic.

The carbon tax is mostly rebated to people. So all cancelling it does is eliminate the rebate.

Well, I suppose they could keep the rebate and cut something else, but that seems more complicated. Anyway, the Liberals messed up the carbon tax implementation, specifically the part where people realize they’re getting new money from the government and why, so I think a lot of people barely if at all notice that they’re receiving a rebate related to the small tax increase they’re seeing elsewhere.

[tomh009]

Well, I suppose they could keep the rebate and cut something else, but that seems more complicated. Anyway, the Liberals messed up the carbon tax implementation, specifically the part where people realize they’re getting new money from the government and why, so I think a lot of people barely if at all notice that they’re receiving a rebate related to the small tax increase they’re seeing elsewhere.

I do expect that people WILL notice NOT getting the rebate, though--although, by then, it'll be too late.

[ijmorlan]

I do expect that people WILL notice NOT getting the rebate, though--although, by then, it'll be too late.

True enough. Similarly, people will definitely notice what happens if Poilievre becomes PM, but as you say, it will be too late at that point. We’ll lose at least some good things in this country before people wise up.

[ac3r]

Well, Poilievre becoming PM can't be any worse than another 4 more years of William H. West. I don't plan to bother voting again, but I also don't expect to see any difference no matter which clown we elect. This country is cooked.

[plam]

Well, Poilievre becoming PM can't be any worse than another 4 more years of William H. West. I don't plan to bother voting again, but I also don't expect to see any difference no matter which clown we elect. This country is cooked.

That's just not true. Here, let me give you a list of the things that NZ's right-wing Coalition of Chaos has done in the year since it's been elected. Same thing will happen in Canada and will make peoples' lives worse. And with Jagmeet Singh's no-carbon-tax pledge I certainly can't vote for the NDP.

* reversed the globally-praised smoking ban with rising no-smoking age, leading to increased health costs down the line
* re-raising speed limits in cities so that more people will be killed by cars
* forcing municipalities to hold referenda, at great expense, to confirm their decisions to add Maori wards to councils
* putting in place unaffordable tax cuts that benefit rich people only
* reinstating the $5 copay for prescriptions during a cost-of-living crisis
* reinstating no-cause evictions
* pushing through a bill for fast-track approvals for building stuff contrary to the equivalent of the Environmental Assessment process
* getting rid of a plan which would have assured financing for water infrastructure reconstruction
* introducing the "Treaty Principles Bill" which aims to unilaterally change the conditions of the Treaty of Waitangi between the Crown and the Māori, which is New Zealand's founding document, thus destabilizing the country's constitutional order
* cancelling an order for ferries between the North Island and South Island, which is a completely essential piece of infrastructure for NZ, and not having an alternate plan

[Bytor]

Once challenge for the Polievre Conservatives will be how to replace the lost revenue if they follow through on their promise to remove the carbon tax. After 40+ years of cost-cutting and asset selling, there really isn't much left to do that won't be problematic.

They won't bother to replace it because Poilievre and his gang want to follow the same "starve the beast" methodology that Ford and other conservative Provincial Premiers are doing to try and privatize government services.

Too many Canadian conservatives adopting the American "temporarily embarrassed millionaires" ideology.

[ac3r]

Well, Poilievre becoming PM can't be any worse than another 4 more years of William H. West. I don't plan to bother voting again, but I also don't expect to see any difference no matter which clown we elect. This country is cooked.

That's just not true. Here, let me give you a list of the things that NZ's right-wing Coalition of Chaos has done in the year since it's been elected. Same thing will happen in Canada and will make peoples' lives worse. And with Jagmeet Singh's no-carbon-tax pledge I certainly can't vote for the NDP.

So as I said, we're cooked, yeah? We get to choose between the dork we call PP. The guy who thinks taxing Netflix is the answer to some of our problems. Or the clown that wore a turban and painted his skin dark for the lulz and turned our country into a total joke on the world stage.

Normally I vote strategically, even though I consider myself a political anarchist, but at this point how can anyone really care anymore? It's not like anyone listened to philosophers such as Jean Baudrillard and his "fatal strategies" or contemporaries such as Nick Land. The world at large still bows down to neoliberal capitalism and that is just...lol, lmao even.

Blow it all up already.

[plam]

That's just not true. Here, let me give you a list of the things that NZ's right-wing Coalition of Chaos has done in the year since it's been elected. Same thing will happen in Canada and will make peoples' lives worse. And with Jagmeet Singh's no-carbon-tax pledge I certainly can't vote for the NDP.

So as I said, we're cooked, yeah? We get to choose between the dork we call PP. The guy who thinks taxing Netflix is the answer to some of our problems. Or the clown that wore a turban and painted his skin dark for the lulz and turned our country into a total joke on the world stage.

Normally I vote strategically, even though I consider myself a political anarchist, but at this point how can anyone really care anymore? It's not like anyone listened to philosophers such as Jean Baudrillard and his "fatal strategies" or contemporaries such as Nick Land. The world at large still bows down to neoliberal capitalism and that is just...lol, lmao even.

Blow it all up already.

Again, I find the nihilist perspective unhelpful. We will see a difference depending on who is elected, even if the best possible platform can't be put in place.

I think the Liberals are far too centrist, but I am certainly appreciating the telecom regulation that the Canadian federal government has caused. It's a lot cheaper than it used to be. Or, let's take long-term drinking water advisories. Since 2015, 145 advisories have been lifted, and there are now 33 advisories. (https://www.sac-isc.gc.ca/eng/1506514143...3317130660). That's 81% of the advisories gone.