General Road and Highway Discussion

[bravado]

I think people already have no concept of how much it costs to fix a pothole, or a manhole cover, or even a nearby water main break.

The costs of tunnels and highways and big stuff is just incomprehensible for most people - and nobody in government ever really seems to try and educate “the taxpayer” on how much their/our choices actually cost…

The extreme stupidity of this project leads me to think that Ford is going to use it as a justification to buy back or fuck with the 407 instead, since it will be obviously cheaper to do that. And yet we still will never have the conversation of how wasteful these fucking highways are.

[timio]

Toronto gradually slopes up from the lake. By the time you hit the 401, you're substantially above lake level. Queens Quay is 70m above sea level, you're at 100m by the time you reach Queen's Park, and 170m by the time you're at the 401 if you go straight up University/Avenue.

Flooding is less of an issue because the ground water has lots of places to go once you're this far north. Even a tunnel will still be well above lake level at this point.

Still Dumpster Fire gonna Dumpster Fire as he has since 2018 and will continue to do so until an obvious alternative shows up. Sigh... Yet another reason to hate FPTP.

[timc]

Maybe the plan is to do a feasibility study, publicize how much it would cost, and then use that to make some other project more palatable.

I have to believe it would be cheaper to buy back the 407 than it would be to build this tunnel.

[ijmorlan]

Maybe the plan is to do a feasibility study, publicize how much it would cost, and then use that to make some other project more palatable.

I have to believe it would be cheaper to buy back the 407 than it would be to build this tunnel.

Buying back the 407 wouldn’t increase capacity. Reducing tolls might slightly increase the amount of the capacity that is used (if the tolls are currently set such that demand is suppressed below the maximum capacity), but it can’t go above the total capacity of the highway. In particular, eliminating the tolls (which is even more stupid than continuing to provide free highways all over the place to everybody) would not free up much space on other roads.

[KevinL]

I could see a broader 'congestion management scheme' with tolls on the 401, DVP/404, 427 and Gardiner all being set with different levels for different vehicle types. Whether that could succeed politically, though...

[cherrypark]

I could see a broader 'congestion management scheme' with tolls on the 401, DVP/404, 427 and Gardiner all being set with different levels for different vehicle types. Whether that could succeed politically, though...

The current government is removing tolls from highways it controls and just uploaded the Gardiner away from Toronto. Unfortunately not happening without a big change in government and probably will never work with the self-interested (even if misdirected) vote from the GTA being so important...

Would be a good idea though! As is well proven elsewhere in the world, congestion pricing is unpopular until people start having less congested highways and don't think its so bad after all.

[bravado]

Tolls are a totally DOA idea in the current political climate. From carbon tax to DCs to tolls, many in government seem to fully believe that pricing forces don’t exist.

Hell, Toronto city staff just said so this week in a meeting.

[neonjoe]

Tolls are a totally DOA idea in the current political climate. From carbon tax to DCs to tolls, many in government seem to fully believe that pricing forces don’t exist.

Hell, Toronto city staff just said so this week in a meeting.

Crazy that many Red States are completely fine with tolls. Even if the tolls are inconsequential it may get rid of some discretionary travel. 
Transit users pay tolls for every trip, ev drivers get a free ride WRT travel taxes. Something needs to change.

[Bytor]

I wonder if this means any improvements to Benton/Frederick, Victoria & King, and I'm sure some other projects are dead? Are the Lancaster changes removing lanes? Does this meaning turning lanes can't be removed?

We'll have to wait and see if he actually tries to introduce and pass such a bill.

[danbrotherston]

I wonder if this means any improvements to Benton/Frederick, Victoria & King, and I'm sure some other projects are dead? Are the Lancaster changes removing lanes? Does this meaning turning lanes can't be removed?

We'll have to wait and see if he actually tries to introduce and pass such a bill.

Well we didn't have to wait long, the bill has been introduced. I'd argue this means basically all meaningful bike lanes in the province are dead for minimum 4 years.

Worse, the polling around this has been horrendous. Both in being incredibly poorly designed, but also in providing a strong indication that the public supports this measure (which it probably doesn't--because it doesn't ask about the key point: should province overrule cities, but it does seem that most people oppose bike lanes "in general").

I'd say any meaningful improvements in cycle infra is DOA in the province for 5+ years minimum. Even if DoFo loses the next election 100% the Bonnie Crombie liberals will continue the policy, they're establishment with zero vision they practice reactive politics only.

Sorry guys...I'm feeling pretty smug about leaving now.

[tomh009]

https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/ottawa-leaders...-1.7074559

In his announcement, Sakaria singled out Ottawa, Kitchener and Toronto as examples of where bike lanes have expanded drastically, creating uncertainty about their impacts to traffic.

"Like for the underused bike lanes on Cedar and Joseph Streets in downtown Kitchener that are making it difficult for emergency vehicles to get through or O'Connor street in Ottawa, where lanes were pointlessly taken away on a key artery making it unsafe for drivers and cyclists alike," he said.

Sarkaria questioned some of the data used to estimate cycling traffic and the impact of bike lanes on congestions, saying he believes very hot and rainy days were not counted.

Existing bike lanes will not have to be ripped up under the first stage of new legislation, Sarkaria said. However, he said that the province will also be asking municipalities for data on projects initiated in the past five years to assess whether the province agrees.

It seems that Ford wants to be able to remove existing bike lanes, too.

[danbrotherston]

https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/ottawa-leaders...-1.7074559

In his announcement, Sakaria singled out Ottawa, Kitchener and Toronto as examples of where bike lanes have expanded drastically, creating uncertainty about their impacts to traffic.

"Like for the underused bike lanes on Cedar and Joseph Streets in downtown Kitchener that are making it difficult for emergency vehicles to get through or O'Connor street in Ottawa, where lanes were pointlessly taken away on a key artery making it unsafe for drivers and cyclists alike," he said.

Sarkaria questioned some of the data used to estimate cycling traffic and the impact of bike lanes on congestions, saying he believes very hot and rainy days were not counted.

Existing bike lanes will not have to be ripped up under the first stage of new legislation, Sarkaria said. However, he said that the province will also be asking municipalities for data on projects initiated in the past five years to assess whether the province agrees.

It seems that Ford wants to be able to remove existing bike lanes, too.

Oooof! There is literally no amount of money he will not spend to burn down the province.

It boggles my mind that people will still vote for him...on the other hand, people are still voting for Trump so I shouldn't be so surprised.

I will say though, the response of most of the advocacy groups here is...so out of touch.

The people who vote for DoFo do not give a flying fuck about equality or access or anything. If you want to convince DoFo voters this is a bad policy talk about red tape, talk about government waste, talk about smart policies, they'll eat it up. They do not care about equity. There are people in this province who would literally pave the roads with brown people if they could...but if they hear that the government is going to create new bureaucracy and spend money ripping up perfectly good roads....they'll throw a tantrum about that. Progressives have GOT to be more politically savvy.

[panamaniac]

https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/ottawa-leaders...-1.7074559


It seems that Ford wants to be able to remove existing bike lanes, too.

Oooof! There is literally no amount of money he will not spend to burn down the province.

It boggles my mind that people will still vote for him...on the other hand, people are still voting for Trump so I shouldn't be so surprised.

I will say though, the response of most of the advocacy groups here is...so out of touch.

The people who vote for DoFo do not give a flying fuck about equality or access or anything. If you want to convince DoFo voters this is a bad policy talk about red tape, talk about government waste, talk about smart policies, they'll eat it up. They do not care about equity. There are people in this province who would literally pave the roads with brown people if they could...but if they hear that the government is going to create new bureaucracy and spend money ripping up perfectly good roads....they'll throw a tantrum about that. Progressives have GOT to be more politically savvy.

So, it's reported today that they're planning to send all 16million of us a "rebate" cheque for $200 (totally unrelated to any thoughts of an early election).  Who wouldn't support that kind of forward-looking government action ....

[tomh009]

So, it's reported today that they're planning to send all 16million of us a "rebate" cheque for $200 (totally unrelated to any thoughts of an early election).  Who wouldn't support that kind of forward-looking government action ....

What's $3.2B among friends? The provincial government is running a healthy surplus, isn't it?

[danbrotherston]

So, it's reported today that they're planning to send all 16million of us a "rebate" cheque for $200 (totally unrelated to any thoughts of an early election).  Who wouldn't support that kind of forward-looking government action ....

What's $3.2B among friends? The provincial government is running a healthy surplus, isn't it? 

I dunno...Ontarians fell for a few shitty beers...a 200 dollar cheque buys *gets calculator* around 200 of those shitty beers.

I think it's going to be a rough couple years in Canada and Ontario.