Cycling in Waterloo Region

[dtkvictim]

Some of these pictures are bit old, but the only thing that changed is the paint was added. The block between Francis and Water hasn't had the top coat added for some reason, so it's been pretty rough for a few weeks now.

Is this a new, recent pave after redoing a a street, the first layer of asphalt?

Then it is very common to wait.

You need to let everything underneath settle before putting on the asphalt's top layer as some parts will subside more and others less. Once everything has had a season or two to settle then you apply the top layer which will be thicker where the binding layer has settled more and thinner where it has settled less.

If you put on the top layer right as soon as the binding layer has cooled and hardened (3-4 days) it would just settle right along with the binding layer and your street, driveway, or parking lot would end up uneven. Plus, the dual-layer construction like that also helps it resist frost heave better.

I mean, this might be true, but then why isn't it an issue for the other block between Victoria and Francis? It was does at the same time, and you can see in my photos that it's clearly fully paved.

It's not really the missing top coat that's my issue. It's that they spill chunks of asphalt all over that are easy for thin bike tires to slip on and the transitions are pretty painful.

[dtkvictim]

Unclear on if that cross ride on the north side of the Duke/Victoria intersection means that that sidewalk is a theoretical cycling route or MUT? The rest looks great and is a welcome improvement, however much I wish it went the whole way down Duke.

I would suspect that that portion is on hold pending the construction of the transit hub. 
Duke St will be closed to vehicular traffic and a new pedestrian/cycling underpass will be constructed.

I think the Victoria St MUT is decoupled from the transit hub itself: https://www.engagewr.ca/victoria-street-modifications

So we may see that built first.

I can't remember where I read this (maybe on UrbanToronto) but I recall the track works and platform relocation (which will close Duke St to cars) is Metrolinx's responsibility and will happen before the transit hub itself is built.

So in other words, all of the active transportation benefits don't depend on the transit hub.

[ac3r]

How does this differ from a sidewalk? Wouldn't it just be cheaper to let cyclists legally use existing sidewalks - especially since most cyclists ride on the sidewalk anyway? Really, is it a big deal? Do you regularly hear on the news stories about horrific bike and pedestrian crashes that take place on sidewalks? Of course not.

A lot of the "multi-use trails" don't make sense. Sure some are wider - especially downtown, we're just turning the whole place into a sea of concrete and asphalt, nice...I mean look at that, it looks like shit - but many of them aren't. By definition, pedestrians can use them and thousands do each day. Why is sharing a space with pedestrians okay if you call it a "multi-use trail" but not okay if it's a sidewalk? Trails are good but what the hell was the point in spending millions of dollars just to pour some asphalt and paint it? Pic related. Barely anyone walks here, let alone cycles. The sidewalks were just fine to handle both. I look at these pictures and think wow they are just burning my money in front of me instead of using it for something important. This is not to say trails are bad, but whoever is demanding, designing and approving these needs to be shot into the sun.

[danbrotherston]

The depth of the freezing is clearly different but we do get frost on the ground some days.

But I’d never heard that it is about frost heaving in winter. Like, that’s usually something that affects subsurface structures mostly. The leaving of asphalt I’ve always been told was about letting the first layer settle and compress under loads before doing the final lift.

Frost on the pavement is not a problem.

Frozen ground absolutely can cause unevenness in the pavement. Not terrible in SW Ontario, but still there, depending on the winter and the location. Not paving the final coat until the following summer is a very logical thing to reduce the risk of frost damage to new pavement.

The point is though, that frost on pavement can only occur when some portion of the ground is frozen. Frost cannot occur on surfaces that are above 0C.

As for the rest, I know this is what engineers say, but given how much of our road engineering is known to be...at best, unjustified by data...I really wonder how important this really is.

[bravado]

How does this differ from a sidewalk? Wouldn't it just be cheaper to let cyclists legally use existing sidewalks - especially since most cyclists ride on the sidewalk anyway? Really, is it a big deal? Do you regularly hear on the news stories about horrific bike and pedestrian crashes that take place on sidewalks? Of course not.

A lot of the "multi-use trails" don't make sense. Sure some are wider - especially downtown, we're just turning the whole place into a sea of concrete and asphalt, nice...I mean look at that, it looks like shit - but many of them aren't. By definition, pedestrians can use them and thousands do each day. Why is sharing a space with pedestrians okay if you call it a "multi-use trail" but not okay if it's a sidewalk? Trails are good but what the hell was the point in spending millions of dollars just to pour some asphalt and paint it? Pic related. Barely anyone walks here, let alone cycles. The sidewalks were just fine to handle both. I look at these pictures and think wow they are just burning my money in front of me instead of using it for something important. This is not to say trails are bad, but whoever is demanding, designing and approving these needs to be shot into the sun.

Pedestrian v Cyclist conflict is actually really common, it just doesn't end with trips to the hospital. People complain about bikes and pedestrians sharing space all the time and there's no reason for it other than cheapness and not wanting to take any space away from vehicles. You are right though - multi-use trails are a bad compromise that annoys everyone that uses them. We should always separate modes of transit, but one 4-wheeled group refuses to compromise on space and budgets.

If you have to avoid people's dogs and pedestrians with headphones and kids running in front of you to get to the store on a bike, you just won't choose to do it. Since we want people to cycle, they should have a dedicated space for it. I've been yelled at a bunch of times by boomers on empty paved park paths just for existing on 2 wheels in the same space as them.

[dtkvictim]

How does this differ from a sidewalk? Wouldn't it just be cheaper to let cyclists legally use existing sidewalks - especially since most cyclists ride on the sidewalk anyway? Really, is it a big deal? Do you regularly hear on the news stories about horrific bike and pedestrian crashes that take place on sidewalks? Of course not.

It's designated space. Would you say the same thing about painted bike lanes on the road? The only difference is whether they are at road level or sidewalk level (and the safety that comes with that). You aren't entirely wrong, but sidewalks as we build them are wholly inadequate for 1) cycling, and 2) sharing space with pedestrians and cyclists. The continuous breaks in the sidewalk are unpleasant to ride on. The width of a standard sidewalk makes even 2 people walking past each other about the limit, add more people are bicycles which need a bit more width, and it doesn't work. People do constantly complain about this when cyclists use sidewalks.

Why is sharing a space with pedestrians okay if you call it a "multi-use trail" but not okay if it's a sidewalk?

Again, they have different dimensions. I'm not aware of a single multi-use trail that's anywhere near as narrow as a standard sidewalk. Secondary to that, it's about traffic volumes. I do think this stretch is low volume enough that a MUT would have been fine to be honest, but it's not always the case. I don't think a MUT would have worked on Water St, and a sidewalk definitely wouldn't.

People (both cyclists and especially pedestrians) are also much more likely to keep right when a centerline is painted.

especially downtown, we're just turning the whole place into a sea of concrete and asphalt, nice...I mean look at that, it looks like shit

The only point a really agree with here, but you've singled out probably the worst justification possible. You're aware the street used to look like this, right?



It was already a sea of concrete and asphalt. That said, while they didn't make things worse, our management of greenspace and beauty is pretty appalling. This random street I dropped into in NL (excluding the access road on the left) has basically the same width as Duke St at this part. While it has one less sidewalk, it manages to fit in 2 rows of trees, and still has a floating bus stop.

[cherrypark]

Yes but having trees and boulevards might require lanes to be narrower and money be invested into the public realm and roadways that are not directly convertible to level of service increases... There is zero reason the Lofts side of Duke here couldn't look like this and has nothing to do with the bike lane being at sidewalk level.

The suggestion that sidewalks suffice for riding a bike are completely unserious. The MUTs that turn into cross-walks at every cross road are already illogical enough...

[Bytor]

The depth of the freezing is clearly different but we do get frost on the ground some days.

But I’d never heard that it is about frost heaving in winter. Like, that’s usually something that affects subsurface structures mostly. The leaving of asphalt I’ve always been told was about letting the first layer settle and compress under loads before doing the final lift.

Frost on the pavement is not a problem.

Frozen ground absolutely can cause unevenness in the pavement. Not terrible in SW Ontario, but still there, depending on the winter and the location. Not paving the final coat until the following summer is a very logical thing to reduce the risk of frost damage to new pavement.

To elaborate, if you put the second layer of asphalt on too soon before enough settling has occurred, not only can you get the uneven pavement I was talking about, but the layers of asphalt can also potentially decouple, or the bottom layer can decouple from the stones and sand below.

It's not very much, millimetres, but that is now a gap that water can get into. As we all know, water expands when it freezes. That freezing causes the asphalt to buckle and crack, letting in more water.Also, if the water can drain fast enough from the gap it will carry some of the sand and smaller stones with it, leaving a bigger gap for more ice to freeze inside and cause a great amount of frost heave. Multiple cycles of that is what causes potholes.

It's going to happen eventually, but putting on the top coat too soon can make it happen in only a few years rather than 20 years.

[cherrypark]

To the small but dedicated 2-wheelers on here: CycleWR is organizing a Sep 20 (Fri) group ride from Victoria Park to Forest Heights and back to TWB Brewing that will pass by some of the new (and upcoming) infra talked about on here. If you are interested, more details here:

CycleWR September Group Ride

[bravado]

The last group ride was an hour or so around east Kitchener and also ended at a brewery for chat and drinks. Best go while the weather is still good!