ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit

[Bytor]

At this point, I feel about "ION should have been tunnelled through Downtown" the same way I feel about the suggestions that Stage 2 should run down Maple Grove or the 401.

Presenting an option that superficially seems like a good idea until you look at all the data and realize it's utterly ridiculous and either presented in bad faith or echoed by a person too uneducated to know that it is bad faith.

Lmao. If only you could take a look at my CV hahah.

So you're a transit planner suddenly? Didn't you always claim that you were an architect?

[danbrotherston]

"Corruption" has morphed into "things I don't agree with" nowadays.

Or “things that I have no idea what I am talking about”

These are both dishonest and dismissive interpretations that you know are wrong as Bravado was clear how they are using the word. Even if you feel that your meaning applies to the general public it clearly doesn’t apply here.

[tomh009]

These are both dishonest and dismissive interpretations that you know are wrong as Bravado was clear how they are using the word. Even if you feel that your meaning applies to the general public it clearly doesn’t apply here.

Yes, Bravado did clarify. But that is still not the accepted meaning of the word in English--and in this case, the word "corrupt" has a very specific and clear meaning, it is not just a personal feeling. In the same vein, one could start using the word "killer" for people who eat meat, or "terrorist" for people who drive cars, or "fascist" for people who disagree with me. Even if I explained my usage, it would not make those usages correct.

[danbrotherston]

These are both dishonest and dismissive interpretations that you know are wrong as Bravado was clear how they are using the word. Even if you feel that your meaning applies to the general public it clearly doesn’t apply here.

Yes, Bravado did clarify. But that is still not the accepted meaning of the word in English--and in this case, the word "corrupt" has a very specific and clear meaning, it is not just a personal feeling. In the same vein, one could start using the word "killer" for people who eat meat, or "terrorist" for people who drive cars, or "fascist" for people who disagree with me. Even if I explained my usage, it would not make those usages correct.

I wasn't calling out you, your reply was reasonable. I was replying to panamaniac and creative specifically, who specifically cited examples of the usage of the word that isn't in use in this discussion.

As for what words mean and "correctness" I don't think you or anyone has a monopoly on what words meaning or what is "correct". The point of words is to communicate. If you think a person is wrong for calling a meat eater a killer, you disagree with the point that is being made, the person still effectively communicated their meaning, which is the whole point of words. They feel such behaviour makes a person a killer, you (and I) don't. But both of those are opinions formed on the basis of our personal beliefs in the value of lives of different species on this planet. That's a much more interesting and valid conversation than declaring that they are using the word "killer" wrong. To me, it's important to talk about ideas because hiding behind definitions of words never leads to an honest and open conversation.

[plam]

Incidentally, I was just briefly in Melbourne, pop 5 million, which has an extensive tram system all running at surface, plus suburban trains which run underground in the CBD...

[tomh009]

CBD?

[danbrotherston]

CBD?

Central business district I assume...or Australian for "Downtown"...

Also...it's so weird that NYC is the source of the name of every city centre in North America.

[coriander]

Kitchener-Waterloo is at the end of the day a small city. Moreover, public transit has poor modal share here relative to the size of the city. Canadian modal shares are typical for those of a Western European country, so Halifax clusters with Brescia, Lausanne, and Rennes, all similarly sized, at around 13-14%, c.f. KW at 7.5%.

Where do you get 7.5% transit modal share for K-W from? I can only see about 5% from StatCan.

I considered just Kitchener and Waterloo, discounting the townships and Cambridge. This is because I used GHSL urban area definitions for counting population, and the GHSL shape for KW is more or less just the 2 cities. Moreover, I considered 2016 census data. The international figures I have are all pre-pandemic; moreover the decisionmaking for iON was done before the pandemic. The 2021 census has a big dip in transit mode share across the contry probably due to pandemic distortion.

[coriander]

Just to be fair, just because we specifically can't do something because of corruption and waste and incompetence, doesn't mean that the idea is bad. Lots of places could have done the ION "the right way" and on-budget. We should have, but I know full well why we didn't/couldn't.

The ION is a big compromise that is in no way capable for the future, but the alternative was literally nothing, so I get it. I'm still just kinda sick of accepting mediocrity for the same price tag as excellence.

Very few places of K-W's mid-2010s size, or smaller, have done things the "right" (i.e. best, or automated light metro?) way, let alone those with transit usage as low as K-W's. When they did, the per-kilometre costs were at minimum double that of iON. Far more have built tramways roughly comparable to the iON; they are all over France. 

Of course, KW is growing much more quickly than any small French or Italian city is, or could hope to. It is also growing far more quickly than it expected to ten years ago. With clairvoyance perhaps it would have been appropriate to build something much nicer. In its absence, this is not especially bad in any way, excepting, of course, speed limit and frequency woes.

[ijmorlan]

CBD?

Central business district I assume...or Australian for "Downtown"...

Also...it's so weird that NYC is the source of the name of every city centre in North America.

Except for Waterloo!

[ac3r]

All of the machines are unable to accept cash payments at the moment, at least according to the announcements I overheard.