Grand River Transit

[bravado]

Imagine thinking we have "unique customer needs" compared to the far-and-away biggest transit payment system in the country. Just more nonsense language to protect some specific little Regional silo/fiefdom. It wouldn't be Canadian policy if it wasn't weird little feuding between governments without anybody considering the interest of the citizens!

[danbrotherston]

Huh, this is the first time I've ever heard an explanation as to why we didn't get Presto for GRT:

GRT is working to launch a mobile fare payment system that will complement the GRT EasyGO fare card. The goal is to increase customer convenience by allowing the purchase of fares anywhere and anytime without the need to carry cash, a physical card, or a ticket.

Presto could not be selected because they did not respond to a Request for Proposals, which is a Regional requirement. Having our own system allows us to ensure our fare products meet our unique customer needs. At the time, Presto was not capable of providing certain features GRT needed, such as handling a U-Pass program.

Found on the GRT Business Plan page on EngageWR, under the Questions tab: https://www.engagewr.ca/grt-business-pla...a#tool_tab

This is not a new statement, it's the one they've been using for years and year.

It is also complete and total bullshit.

"Presto could not be selected because they did not respond to a Request for Proposals, which is a Regional requirement."

The region created a requirement (Request for Proposals) that Presto would not fill....I won't say we did it to intentionally exclude Presto...but this is not a reason not to have Presto...but it is nothing more than an excuse, we could have chosen Presto, if we'd wanted, an RFP is no required by anyone but us.

At the time, Presto was not capable of providing certain features GRT needed, such as handling a U-Pass program.

So? U-pass used to be handled by students showing their student card, the same thing could have continued.

Having our own system allows us to ensure our fare products meet our unique customer needs.

Bravado put it better than I could...we're not a special fucking flower, nothing about our transit system or it's users is in any way unique.

This was a bad decision by our region, and we should remind them this at every opportunity, and we should stop accepting their bullshit excuses.

[SF22]

Huh, this is the first time I've ever heard an explanation as to why we didn't get Presto for GRT:

GRT is working to launch a mobile fare payment system that will complement the GRT EasyGO fare card. The goal is to increase customer convenience by allowing the purchase of fares anywhere and anytime without the need to carry cash, a physical card, or a ticket.

Presto could not be selected because they did not respond to a Request for Proposals, which is a Regional requirement. Having our own system allows us to ensure our fare products meet our unique customer needs. At the time, Presto was not capable of providing certain features GRT needed, such as handling a U-Pass program.

Found on the GRT Business Plan page on EngageWR, under the Questions tab: https://www.engagewr.ca/grt-business-pla...a#tool_tab

This is not a new statement, it's the one they've been using for years and year.

It is also complete and total bullshit.

"Presto could not be selected because they did not respond to a Request for Proposals, which is a Regional requirement."

The region created a requirement (Request for Proposals) that Presto would not fill....I won't say we did it to intentionally exclude Presto...but this is not a reason not to have Presto...but it is nothing more than an excuse, we could have chosen Presto, if we'd wanted, an RFP is no required by anyone but us.

At the time, Presto was not capable of providing certain features GRT needed, such as handling a U-Pass program.

So? U-pass used to be handled by students showing their student card, the same thing could have continued.

Having our own system allows us to ensure our fare products meet our unique customer needs.

Bravado put it better than I could...we're not a special fucking flower, nothing about our transit system or it's users is in any way unique.

This was a bad decision by our region, and we should remind them this at every opportunity, and we should stop accepting their bullshit excuses.

Oh, I'm definitely not waving my hands and saying "oh, good enough then!" But I've been in this space for a few years now, and have a fair bit of interest in what GRT is doing, and I've never personally seen a statement from GRT directly that specifically says "Oh, this is the reason why we didn't go with Presto." All I've seen previously is "We won't be looking at moving to Presto at this time, end of conversation." I don't doubt that the region built their RFP to exclude them for whatever web of reasons they had.

[ac3r]

It's just the region choosing to do things their own way to stroke their ego. It's like the recycling system. It's 2024 and the region is still using the tiny blue bin program they started back in, what, 1980 or something? Meanwhile most large urban centres across North America now use the big ass bins on wheels since it's more efficient, but Waterloo Region refuses to change because they were the ones to come up with the blue bins. Those made sense 40 years ago when the population was tiny and you mostly recycled your old tin cans and newspapers. It makes no sense to continue using today.

[danbrotherston]

This is not a new statement, it's the one they've been using for years and year.

It is also complete and total bullshit.

"Presto could not be selected because they did not respond to a Request for Proposals, which is a Regional requirement."

The region created a requirement (Request for Proposals) that Presto would not fill....I won't say we did it to intentionally exclude Presto...but this is not a reason not to have Presto...but it is nothing more than an excuse, we could have chosen Presto, if we'd wanted, an RFP is no required by anyone but us.

At the time, Presto was not capable of providing certain features GRT needed, such as handling a U-Pass program.

So? U-pass used to be handled by students showing their student card, the same thing could have continued.

Having our own system allows us to ensure our fare products meet our unique customer needs.

Bravado put it better than I could...we're not a special fucking flower, nothing about our transit system or it's users is in any way unique.

This was a bad decision by our region, and we should remind them this at every opportunity, and we should stop accepting their bullshit excuses.

Oh, I'm definitely not waving my hands and saying "oh, good enough then!" But I've been in this space for a few years now, and have a fair bit of interest in what GRT is doing, and I've never personally seen a statement from GRT directly that specifically says "Oh, this is the reason why we didn't go with Presto." All I've seen previously is "We won't be looking at moving to Presto at this time, end of conversation." I don't doubt that the region built their RFP to exclude them for whatever web of reasons they had.

Fair enough, and I'm sure it's a question of timing and such, I just know I've heard that exact statement before, and discussed it with folks here. But I'm always happy to do it again

[bravado]

I have to assume no manager or councillor is going to come out and just openly say that “we didn’t pick presto because we like doing our own thing regardless of what’s best for transit users”

[KingandWeber]

I seem to have a memory that the real reason they didn’t pick Presto was because Presto wouldn’t support any specialized university pass program, just a general student discount. So the Region had a choice to make and abandon its pass programs (which all UW and WLU students are mandatorily required to participate as part of their student fees) that offer unlimited use or to go its own way. It just seems incredible to me that Presto couldn’t be convinced to build these kind of programs in, but assuming that fact was true, I do recognize that it was a hard choice because those pass programs do provide GRT with a sizeable and stable revenue stream (and I think students represent a uniquely large share of transit users in the Region compared to other municipalities). I still think they should have picked Presto and it’s extremely clear now that Presto was the better choice, but I don’t think it was as dumb a decision as people are making it out to be.

[plam]

I seem to have a memory that the real reason they didn’t pick Presto was because Presto wouldn’t support any specialized university pass program, just a general student discount. So the Region had a choice to make and abandon its pass programs (which all UW and WLU students are mandatorily required to participate as part of their student fees) that offer unlimited use or to go its own way. It just seems incredible to me that Presto couldn’t be convinced to build these kind of programs in, but assuming that fact was true, I do recognize that it was a hard choice because those pass programs do provide GRT with a sizeable and stable revenue stream (and I think students represent a uniquely large share of transit users in the Region compared to other municipalities). I still think they should have picked Presto and it’s extremely clear now that Presto was the better choice, but I don’t think it was as dumb a decision as people are making it out to be.

I also think that at the time Presto had a bunch of issues (i.e. it did actually take a long time for it to be accepted on TTC).  I mean, now, sure, it looks kind of silly not to be on Presto, but as with any IT project, they can and do fail pretty often, really.

[taylortbb]

It's just the region choosing to do things their own way to stroke their ego. It's like the recycling system. It's 2024 and the region is still using the tiny blue bin program they started back in, what, 1980 or something? Meanwhile most large urban centres across North America now use the big ass bins on wheels since it's more efficient, but Waterloo Region refuses to change because they were the ones to come up with the blue bins.

You're just making stuff up. The region doesn't refuse to change, they literally just awarded a new recycling contract which includes the new bins.

It's no surprise that somewhere like Toronto would switch to automated collection before Waterloo. Labour costs more in Toronto, so they're going to see ROI on it first.

I have to assume no manager or councillor is going to come out and just openly say that “we didn’t pick presto because we like doing our own thing regardless of what’s best for transit users”

The major reason was that Presto was still deep in TTC implementation, and it wasn't clear when that would be done. Presto wasn't willing to promise GRT that they could have the install done before ION opening. And obviously the old fare boxes don't work in a proof-of-payment system like ION. So the region was worried that ION would be ready to open, except there'd be no way to collect fares.

Obviously it turned out to be a non-issue, with the Bombardier delays they could have had Presto long before ION. But hindsight is 20/20, no one knew at the time that ION opening would be delayed, or how long Presto's TTC rollout would take.

I also think that at the time Presto had a bunch of issues (i.e. it did actually take a long time for it to be accepted on TTC).  I mean, now, sure, it looks kind of silly not to be on Presto, but as with any IT project, they can and do fail pretty often, really.

Also this. Back then everyone hated Presto. It's amazing how obvious everything is in hindsight, but a lot people thought Presto was total shit back then.

[danbrotherston]

I seem to have a memory that the real reason they didn’t pick Presto was because Presto wouldn’t support any specialized university pass program, just a general student discount. So the Region had a choice to make and abandon its pass programs (which all UW and WLU students are mandatorily required to participate as part of their student fees) that offer unlimited use or to go its own way. It just seems incredible to me that Presto couldn’t be convinced to build these kind of programs in, but assuming that fact was true, I do recognize that it was a hard choice because those pass programs do provide GRT with a sizeable and stable revenue stream (and I think students represent a uniquely large share of transit users in the Region compared to other municipalities). I still think they should have picked Presto and it’s extremely clear now that Presto was the better choice, but I don’t think it was as dumb a decision as people are making it out to be.

You'll notice that the statement that SF22 quotes explicitly mentions the U-Pass program: "such as handling a U-Pass program."

This does not change the fact that it is a completely bullshit excuse. The only feature that Presto doesn't support is tapping an actual UW student card. This would not prevent ANY of the following options:

1. Allow students to board with a UW student card WITHOUT tapping, as they did before.
2. Ship all students an actual Presto card with a "special" unlimited subscription on it.
3. Ship all students an actual Presto card with a "special" unlimited subscription on it and require them to ALSO carry a student card for photo ID.



And as Presto not been willing to guarantee they would be rolled out in time...well..that's just called honesty, because esolutions promised but didn't deliver that either.


Yes, people hated presto...but they were idiots if they thought our IT solution wouldn't have problems. But Waterloo is in good company....they're hardly the only Ontario city to have done something like that...London also did...with the same card from the same company...

[coriander]

At least London isn't within the GO service zone. Waterloo and Guelph see large GO ridership and there are big infrastructure investments ongoing to deliver 30 or 15 minute service; the region is really intimately linked to transit taking PRESTO fares. That fares are not only unintegrated but furthermore on entirely separate media is just plain silly.

[danbrotherston]

At least London isn't within the GO service zone. Waterloo and Guelph see large GO ridership and there are big infrastructure investments ongoing to deliver 30 or 15 minute service; the region is really intimately linked to transit taking PRESTO fares. That fares are not only unintegrated but furthermore on entirely separate media is just plain silly.

I mean, sure, (although London did have GO trains last year--I even rode one--although most hilariously, they didn't take Presto on that train), but we should be moving towards a more connected world, not creating more expensive to manage silos.

As for Waterloo Region, you're right, it's even more unexcusable there.

But AFAIK there are no plans for 15 minute service. There's plans for hourly service that might (dubiously) manage 30 minute service in rush hour.

[KevinT]

But AFAIK there are no plans for 15 minute service. There's plans for hourly service that might (dubiously) manage 30 minute service in rush hour.

It just got a lot closer than it was, https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitchener...-1.7269827.

[the_conestoga_guy]

But AFAIK there are no plans for 15 minute service. There's plans for hourly service that might (dubiously) manage 30 minute service in rush hour.

It just got a lot closer than it was, https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitchener...-1.7269827.

KW is spoiled for news today! 

This is a massive win for our Region because it solves the biggest bottleneck in finally getting hourly (or better) 2WAD service. This, plus all of the passing tracks that are in construction, is shaping up to be some decent service!

Hopefully this project can be timed so that it's done around the same time as the new Central station.

[westwardloo]

It just got a lot closer than it was, https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitchener...-1.7269827.

KW is spoiled for news today! 

This is a massive win for our Region because it solves the biggest bottleneck in finally getting hourly (or better) 2WAD service. This, plus all of the passing tracks that are in construction, is shaping up to be some decent service!

Hopefully this project can be timed so that it's done around the same time as the new Central station.

This is actually huge news! Surprised more people aren't talking about this. This is a necessary step in getting 2WAD service to Guelph and KW, I suspect this will result in 15-20min service levels once constructed.  Although, this fly over will probably take 3-5 years to design and build unfortunately.  I suspect since they had to expropriate the land they were hoping to have this done sooner, but now is better than never. 

If we could get an announcement about the Provinces commitment to HWY 7 and the Breslau GO this could easily be the biggest week in News for the Region haha