King-Victoria Transit Hub

[SF22]

Honestly, I don't think they'd close it off for a single reason - the fire station on Lancaster/Guelph is the station that directly services downtown. There's been vague rumours for a while that a new downtown station might get built, but cutting off a direct fire route to the core seems extremely unlikely, especially considering their response times right now are over the desired time.

[panamaniac]

What are the traffic counts like on Lancaster? My recollection from the time that I commuted along Lancaster was that it was fairly busy, but that's very much anecdotal.

Are you thinking to shift that traffic to Margaret?

It’s only a 2 lane street from Union to Wellington, so it can feel busy without having a huge amount of traffic.

Let’s consider southbound traffic; northbound should be more or less the same but in reverse. Divide this traffic into vehicles originating north of the expressway, coming on to Lancaster from the expressway ramp, and vehicles originating south of the expressway in the neighbourhood. Also, we’ll assume the goal is to get to Victoria and Lancaster even though obviously it is actually headed to a wide range of destinations across downtown.

We will also assume the new link routes under the railway are built. These are, on the west side, from the southbound expressway offramp at Wellington, under the tracks and Victoria, linking up with Edna where the offramp does now; and on the east side from the northbound expressway onramp at Wellington, under the tracks, linking up with Bruce and Victoria. That’s why the building with Kitchener Glass was demolished.

Traffic from north of the expressway can take 3 different routes: (1) down Riverbend to Wellington, then across to one of the link roads; (2) across Bridgeport to the expressway, then down to Wellington and continuing on one of the link roads; (3) across Bridgeport to Margaret.

Traffic from the expressway can simply continue down to Wellington and on to the link roads rather than getting off at Lancaster.

Traffic from south of the expressway, in the neighbourhood, can avoid the Lancaster crossing of the tracks by going east to one of the link roads or by going one block west to St. Leger or two blocks west to Margaret.

I would also rename Otto St. to Margaret St. to help people understand that in practice Margaret St. goes all the way to Frederick and therefore provides access to all the same places Lancaster does in that area.

Overall, I feel confident about the above even without traffic counts, because one lane of traffic spread over all these different routes including the 2 new link roads simply isn’t enough to overload them all. In addition to solving the Victoria & Lancaster problem without building a grade separation, or at least not a motor vehicle grade separation, it would also take traffic off of Lancaster south of Victoria, which really isn’t an appropriate route at all for through traffic.

Anything is doable, but it would seem odd to me to use anything other than Lancaster if i were headed to the north ward or Bridgeport from DTK,  Margaret would see a roundabout route.

[ijmorlan]

Anything is doable, but it would seem odd to me to use anything other than Lancaster if i were headed to the north ward or Bridgeport from DTK,  Margaret would see a roundabout route.

Well, at worst it’s Margaret → Wellington → Lancaster, so a 2-block detour. Or use the new link roads to reach the expressway and get off at Bridgeport. OK, it’s a jog to the west on the expressway and then east on Bridgeport, but the point is there are lots of alternatives. Grade separations are expensive and we don’t just build them everywhere.

[ijmorlan]

Honestly, I don't think they'd close it off for a single reason - the fire station on Lancaster/Guelph is the station that directly services downtown. There's been vague rumours for a while that a new downtown station might get built, but cutting off a direct fire route to the core seems extremely unlikely, especially considering their response times right now are over the desired time.

I don’t think a 2 block detour to Margaret will make much difference. Anyway, the problem now is that Lancaster is already closed at the tracks, just not all the time. The fire trucks probably already jog over to Margaret or St. Leger some of the time, when they see train activity at the crossing. While I’m sure the detour would worsen response times right near Lancaster/Victoria, I can’t see it making much difference for properties further from the level crossing.

We can put an absolute ceiling on the problem by looking at the distance/time from Breithaupt/Lancaster to Victoria/Lancaster via the Margaret St. bridge:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/TZPTzZHEdJ3k9aMv5

3 minutes. But this is the absolute worst case where the section of road I’m proposing to close is most of the shortest route on the current road network. For almost all trips that reasonably use that block of Lancaster, the best route without using that block of Lancaster will be less, and often much less, than 3 minutes worse.

All that being said, as the fire department is upgraded, a new location on a road more optimized for moving vehicles might be appropriate. It wouldn’t be the first time fire stations move around as the city develops.

Final word, the fire department issue is actually the first reason given I’ve seen that I find plausible for why we actually do need a Lancaster St. grade separation. I’m not convinced, but I find it believable that a proper study of fire access times would reveal that a good link there is important due to the importance of quick access times by the fire department. Everything else has basically been “I [or some people] like using that road”.

[SF22]

It seems like the city has already investigated the possibility of grade separation at Lancaster St, going back to at least 2018. A more detailed article from Sept 2022.
 
A follow-up document here, saying that the study would be wrapping up in 2024: 

A study was initiated in 2022 to consider the feasibility of constructing a grade separation to replace the Lancaster Street/Metrolinx railway level crossing between Wellington Street and Victoria Street. The construction of such a structure would include pedestrian and cycling facilities. This study is expected to be completed in 2024.

So I imagine we should be hearing something more concrete about this, relatively soon.

[Vojnik_Vahaj]

They really should grade separate the Lancaster crossing because there are som very long trains that go through there and sometimes the train just moves back and forth as it gets unloaded and holds up traffic for a long time. I was late to school a few times because of it

[tomh009]

They really should grade separate the Lancaster crossing because there are som very long trains that go through there and sometimes the train just moves back and forth as it gets unloaded and holds up traffic for a long time. I was late to school a few times because of it

If they do decide to do the grade separation, they really should also close the St Leger level crossing.

[SF22]

They really should grade separate the Lancaster crossing because there are som very long trains that go through there and sometimes the train just moves back and forth as it gets unloaded and holds up traffic for a long time. I was late to school a few times because of it

If they do decide to do the grade separation, they really should also close the St Leger level crossing.

Closing St Leger and turning both Lancaster and Bingeman Centre Dr into grade-separated crossings would make it possible for the GO train to come right to the station (either the existing one, or the future King/Victoria location) without any at-grade crossings within the city. That would put the first at-grade crossing nearly 7km away from the current Kitchener GO station, at Woolwich St in Breslau. When we're talking about the increase in service to provide two-way-all-day trains, we're obviously going to have a jump in how many times trains and drivers/pedestrians/cyclists interact, just because more trains are coming through the space. I'd absolutely support improving safety for everyone by adjusting those intersections where tracks overlap with city streets.

[ac3r]

I know they were looking into the potential of modifying or closing any of the at-grade crossings in this area. An engineer I'm friends with told me about this maybe a year or two ago, but I guess nothing really evolved out of the idea. I hope they figure something out, though. It makes no sense to have a commuter train line into a region that'll have a million people soon enough, having to slow down for at-grade crossings. Imagine anywhere in the GTA having to deal with that?

It probably won't ever happen though just because this is Waterloo Region. This place LARPs as a big city, but can't act like one.

[nms]

Who gets the final say on whether to separate the grade crossings? I can't imagine that what the Region wants takes priority over what Transport Canada, Metrolinx or even CN wants or requires.

In related news, the Park Street rail crossing was rebuilt last weekend to replace some track panels and also add new paint to the crossing, presumably to remind people where not to wait if a train is crossing.

[tomh009]

I know they were looking into the potential of modifying or closing any of the at-grade crossings in this area. An engineer I'm friends with told me about this maybe a year or two ago, but I guess nothing really evolved out of the idea. I hope they figure something out, though. It makes no sense to have a commuter train line into a region that'll have a million people soon enough, having to slow down for at-grade crossings. Imagine anywhere in the GTA having to deal with that?

Until a couple of years ago, the Stouffville GO line had a level crossing at Steeles Ave. On Steeles!

My point is that we are not the only one suffering from lack of infrastructure.

In any case, the Lancaster study should be completed later this year.

[SF22]

I know they were looking into the potential of modifying or closing any of the at-grade crossings in this area. An engineer I'm friends with told me about this maybe a year or two ago, but I guess nothing really evolved out of the idea. I hope they figure something out, though. It makes no sense to have a commuter train line into a region that'll have a million people soon enough, having to slow down for at-grade crossings. Imagine anywhere in the GTA having to deal with that?

Until a couple of years ago, the Stouffville GO line had a level crossing at Steeles Ave. On Steeles!

My point is that we are not the only one suffering from lack of infrastructure.

In any case, the Lancaster study should be completed later this year.

I imagine the Lancaster grade separation study is also tied up with the regional investigation on upgrading Lancaster from Victoria to Wellington (the current approved reconstruction plan addresses Lancaster from Wellington to Bridgeport, and I'm certain I read somewhere that the last couple of blocks were left out specifically because of the rail crossing). Likely the region would only want to approve things on their end if they can account for space for all the things they want - namely, lanes for vehicles, pedestrians and cyclists. 

That said, I can't see why Lancaster can't be narrowed from 4 lanes to 2 between Victoria and Wellington to match the rest of Lancaster if traffic is no longer stopping for trains in this space, and we see some vehicles rerouting to the Bruce St extension that will link Wellington and Victoria 1km down the road.

[danbrotherston]

Until a couple of years ago, the Stouffville GO line had a level crossing at Steeles Ave. On Steeles!

My point is that we are not the only one suffering from lack of infrastructure.

In any case, the Lancaster study should be completed later this year.

I imagine the Lancaster grade separation study is also tied up with the regional investigation on upgrading Lancaster from Victoria to Wellington (the current approved reconstruction plan addresses Lancaster from Wellington to Bridgeport, and I'm certain I read somewhere that the last couple of blocks were left out specifically because of the rail crossing). Likely the region would only want to approve things on their end if they can account for space for all the things they want - namely, lanes for vehicles, pedestrians and cyclists. 

That said, I can't see why Lancaster can't be narrowed from 4 lanes to 2 between Victoria and Wellington to match the rest of Lancaster if traffic is no longer stopping for trains in this space, and we see some vehicles rerouting to the Bruce St extension that will link Wellington and Victoria 1km down the road.

I mean...a good reason...no. But don't expect it to happen easily or without advocacy, and maybe not even then.

[coriander]

I know they were looking into the potential of modifying or closing any of the at-grade crossings in this area. An engineer I'm friends with told me about this maybe a year or two ago, but I guess nothing really evolved out of the idea. I hope they figure something out, though. It makes no sense to have a commuter train line into a region that'll have a million people soon enough, having to slow down for at-grade crossings. Imagine anywhere in the GTA having to deal with that?

It probably won't ever happen though just because this is Waterloo Region. This place LARPs as a big city, but can't act like one.

There is a desire to build very nice infrastructure, but really if it is just the service we are thinking about there should be no problem with running even very frequent trains over a grade crossing. Yes, it will result in traffic interaction, but the trains may have total priority and for motor traffic it is really not huge; this isn't a collector arterial. Trains run at speed through grade crossings; if we are to economically build out the mainline rail network it would be advantageous to save on expensive grade separations. Many Japanese rail lines with much more service than even GO's 18 tph LW peak plans end up just fine with numerous grade crossings.

[danbrotherston]

I know they were looking into the potential of modifying or closing any of the at-grade crossings in this area. An engineer I'm friends with told me about this maybe a year or two ago, but I guess nothing really evolved out of the idea. I hope they figure something out, though. It makes no sense to have a commuter train line into a region that'll have a million people soon enough, having to slow down for at-grade crossings. Imagine anywhere in the GTA having to deal with that?

It probably won't ever happen though just because this is Waterloo Region. This place LARPs as a big city, but can't act like one.

There is a desire to build very nice infrastructure, but really if it is just the service we are thinking about there should be no problem with running even very frequent trains over a grade crossing. Yes, it will result in traffic interaction, but the trains may have total priority and for motor traffic it is really not huge; this isn't a collector arterial. Trains run at speed through grade crossings; if we are to economically build out the mainline rail network it would be advantageous to save on expensive grade separations. Many Japanese rail lines with much more service than even GO's 18 tph LW peak plans end up just fine with numerous grade crossings.

This is very on point.

The city I live in now has a level crossing for one of our main rail lines that sees around 12 trains per hour, and this isn't a minor road, we're talking a major roadway into the city. Near me there is another level crossing that sees around 10 trains per hour. The funny part is ProRail (the rail operator) built a pedestrian underpass nearby for cycling and walking, but the only road crossing is still a level crossing. The main reason for this is that the road crossing would be problematic to grade separate because it's in the village centre, but it's still funny that the main cycle route is separated but the nearby car route is not.