GO Transit

[KevinL]

They have less than a year remaining on that contract, and are trying to milk whatever they can from the workers before it concludes.

[bravado]

https://www.cambridgetimes.ca/news/perfe...b9951.html

If everything goes perfectly, GO Train construction could begin in Cambridge in six years.

That was part of the update on proposed Go Train service between Cambridge and Guelph, and onto Union Station, that was provided to Cambridge city council Tuesday by Oriana Aguas, project manager with the region’s transportation services department.
“There’s a lot of things that need to happen before that,” Aguas cautioned.

[westwardloo]

https://www.cambridgetimes.ca/news/perfe...b9951.html

If everything goes perfectly, GO Train construction could begin in Cambridge in six years.

That was part of the update on proposed Go Train service between Cambridge and Guelph, and onto Union Station, that was provided to Cambridge city council Tuesday by Oriana Aguas, project manager with the region’s transportation services department.
“There’s a lot of things that need to happen before that,” Aguas cautioned.

So in other words don't expect GO trains from Cambridge until 2040-2050 at the earliest.  North America is a joke when it comes to transportation infrastructure timelines, it is actually getting out of control. I don't necessarily think that the proposed GO between cambridge and Guelph is the best option, but it should not take a decade+ to upgrade 18km of track.  

I have a feeling like we will be talking about this plan in 2034 with no progress made.

[SF22]

https://www.cambridgetimes.ca/news/perfe...b9951.html

So in other words don't expect GO trains from Cambridge until 2040-2050 at the earliest.  North America is a joke when it comes to transportation infrastructure timelines, it is actually getting out of control. I don't necessarily think that the proposed GO between cambridge and Guelph is the best option, but it should not take a decade+ to upgrade 18km of track.  

I have a feeling like we will be talking about this plan in 2034 with no progress made.

Do we know how many new trainsets are currently on order for GO? If they're going to be running 15-min, all-day-two-way service on most lines, they must need more trains than they currently have available. I imagine this factors into the equation too - Cambridge/Guelph would need an additional couple of trains to be operational, and if they don't have the physical trains, they can't get that service started. I imagine it takes a few years to turn around trainset orders, but ideally they're working through those as fast as possible.

[bravado]

This specific route would be smaller electric units, closer to LRT units than big diesel ones. The fact that the rails exist and need minimal new crossings/signaling is the only positive behind the aggressive timeframe.

[nms]

So in other words don't expect GO trains from Cambridge until 2040-2050 at the earliest.  North America is a joke when it comes to transportation infrastructure timelines, it is actually getting out of control. I don't necessarily think that the proposed GO between Cambridge and Guelph is the best option, but it should not take a decade+ to upgrade 18km of track.  

I have a feeling like we will be talking about this plan in 2034 with no progress made.

Aside from countries with authoritarian regimes, what's a typical timeline elsewhere for an infrastructure upgrade like this one? For instance:
1. We know that the track is privately owned, so negotiations needs to happen with CN before anything happens.
2. We know that there are no existing trainsets waiting to run.
3. We know that various capital budgets (municipal, provincial and federal) often are planned multiple years in advance.

What could be done differently here to speed things up?

[SF22]

So in other words don't expect GO trains from Cambridge until 2040-2050 at the earliest.  North America is a joke when it comes to transportation infrastructure timelines, it is actually getting out of control. I don't necessarily think that the proposed GO between Cambridge and Guelph is the best option, but it should not take a decade+ to upgrade 18km of track.  

I have a feeling like we will be talking about this plan in 2034 with no progress made.

Aside from countries with authoritarian regimes, what's a typical timeline elsewhere for an infrastructure upgrade like this one? For instance:
1. We know that the track is privately owned, so negotiations needs to happen with CN before anything happens.
2. We know that there are no existing trainsets waiting to run.
3. We know that various capital budgets (municipal, provincial and federal) often are planned multiple years in advance.

What could be done differently here to speed things up?

I'd really like to know how Montreal/Quebec managed to plan, build and get ridership underway for the REM system so fast. That's a Canadian example that we really should be looking to emulate. The project officially started in 2015, they had contractors by early 2018 and broke ground a few months later, and despite delays (COVID and buried century-old explosives), they still opened the first stations in mid-2023. That's just 8 years to go from concept to execution, and they're still expanding the system.

[danbrotherston]

Aside from countries with authoritarian regimes, what's a typical timeline elsewhere for an infrastructure upgrade like this one? For instance:
1. We know that the track is privately owned, so negotiations needs to happen with CN before anything happens.
2. We know that there are no existing trainsets waiting to run.
3. We know that various capital budgets (municipal, provincial and federal) often are planned multiple years in advance.

What could be done differently here to speed things up?

I'd really like to know how Montreal/Quebec managed to plan, build and get ridership underway for the REM system so fast. That's a Canadian example that we really should be looking to emulate. The project officially started in 2015, they had contractors by early 2018 and broke ground a few months later, and despite delays (COVID and buried century-old explosives), they still opened the first stations in mid-2023. That's just 8 years to go from concept to execution, and they're still expanding the system.

The sad thing is that Montreal/Quebec are not even emulating it. The REM Est or whatever it was to be called is basically going back to the same bullshit of all usual government planning.

To me, it feels like a power issue more than anything, REM was developed by the pension fund in some way, I'm not really understanding the relationship, but it feels like a power thing.

As for how to make projects like this, I think we have home grown examples we should emulate. A decade before planning for the ION started in earnest, we built the iXpress as a proof of concept for it. We could have a bus service to Guelph tomorrow...the fact we aren't shows we're either bad at this, or not serious about this.

[KevinT]

Of course, I think we should have both Guelph and Milton, and the Lakeshore West Hamilton→Brantford extension that takes back the Paris rail trail and loops up to Cambridge.

You don't have to take back the Cambridge to Paris rail trail, the old line through Branchton and Harrisburg to Lyndon will get you to the same spot in Cambridge without the time consuming jog through Brantford. Will it ever happen? No.

[KevinL]

Do we know how many new trainsets are currently on order for GO? If they're going to be running 15-min, all-day-two-way service on most lines, they must need more trains than they currently have available.

There will be new orders as part of the electrification plan, those units will be catenary-electric and run on the upgraded lines, freeing up diesel units for the rest of the network (though they will also get catenary-electric locomotives to push the existing cars). Not sure how big an order that is, and when it will be implemented.

But as mentioned above, Cambridge-Guelph would use unique units for that shuttle service (either DMUs or battery EMUs).

[jeremyroman]

We could have a bus service to Guelph tomorrow...the fact we aren't shows we're either bad at this, or not serious about this.

But we _do_ have a bus service to Guelph -- GO Transit route 17 (admittedly, only hourly on weekdays): https://assets.metrolinx.com/image/uploa...ABLE17.pdf

In addition to, of course, the GO Kitchener line trains. It may be inadequate, but it's not non-existent.

Edit: Unless you mean Cambridge-Guelph specifically, which yes, is lacking. (It's hard to tell, because a similar point was made in the Hwy 7 thread.)

[danbrotherston]

We could have a bus service to Guelph tomorrow...the fact we aren't shows we're either bad at this, or not serious about this.

But we _do_ have a bus service to Guelph -- GO Transit route 17 (admittedly, only hourly on weekdays): https://assets.metrolinx.com/image/uploa...ABLE17.pdf

In addition to, of course, the GO Kitchener line trains. It may be inadequate, but it's not non-existent.

Edit: Unless you mean Cambridge-Guelph specifically, which yes, is lacking. (It's hard to tell, because a similar point was made in the Hwy 7 thread.)

No, it's a fair point, I did not remember about that.

I think there is loads of room for improvement, but it is better than the nothing that there was when last I was living in the region.

[Bytor]

Of course, I think we should have both Guelph and Milton, and the Lakeshore West Hamilton→Brantford extension that takes back the Paris rail trail and loops up to Cambridge.

You don't have to take back the Cambridge to Paris rail trail, the old line through Branchton and Harrisburg to Lyndon will get you to the same spot in Cambridge without the time consuming jog through Brantford. Will it ever happen? No.

You can have trails beside active rail lines. You could easily shift the walking trail over with enough width for double-tracking all the way from Cambridge to Paris.

And with a proper 110mph (177km/h) intercity rail system, it's not a time-consuming jog through Brantford.

Cambridge → Paris ~21km, ~8 minutes
Paris → Brantford, ~12km, ~6 minutes
Brantford → Hamilton, ~36km, ~13 minutes, using the Hamilton-Brantford rail trail right of way.

With a 1 minute dwell time at Paris and Brantford, that's 29 minutes.

Going through Branchton, Harrisburg and Lynden instead 

Cambridge → Harrisburg Wye, 22km, ~8 minutes
Harrisburg Wye, 2km, 2 minutes
Harrisburg Wye → Lynden ~6km, ~ 4 minutes
Lynden→Hamilton, ~30km, ~14 minutes

With a 1 minute well time at Lynden, that's also 29 minutes. Again, the 90° curves around the RBG and Main / Dundurn, but also a very tight wye track at Harrisburg to turn towards Lynden which reduces one's speed significantly. And that means from the wye to Lynden the train can only get up to ~55mph (87km/h) instead of 110mph.

I rounded the Lynden mileage down and the Brantford route up, and it also depends on the actual geometry of what that wye through Harrisburg was, which I was also generous as to speed for it. It could ad as much as 5 minutes instead of 2 onto the Cambridge to Lynden portion.

So, overall, If both routes existed with modern electric inter-city rail, you'd probably get to Hamilton 5 minutes faster going through Brantford if all these rails had not been abandoned and had been kept in use and upgraded over time.

[coriander]

We could have a bus service to Guelph tomorrow...the fact we aren't shows we're either bad at this, or not serious about this.

But we _do_ have a bus service to Guelph -- GO Transit route 17 (admittedly, only hourly on weekdays): https://assets.metrolinx.com/image/uploa...ABLE17.pdf

In addition to, of course, the GO Kitchener line trains. It may be inadequate, but it's not non-existent.

Edit: Unless you mean Cambridge-Guelph specifically, which yes, is lacking. (It's hard to tell, because a similar point was made in the Hwy 7 thread.)

GO route 17 is painfully slow getting into Guelph. Moving between the universities and Guelph Central takes up a literal hour, or three times longer than the train travel time between Kitchener GO and Guelph Central. Adding additional rail service is leaps and bounds better for the speed alone.

[tomh009]

But we _do_ have a bus service to Guelph -- GO Transit route 17 (admittedly, only hourly on weekdays): https://assets.metrolinx.com/image/uploa...ABLE17.pdf

In addition to, of course, the GO Kitchener line trains. It may be inadequate, but it's not non-existent.

Edit: Unless you mean Cambridge-Guelph specifically, which yes, is lacking. (It's hard to tell, because a similar point was made in the Hwy 7 thread.)

GO route 17 is painfully slow getting into Guelph. Moving between the universities and Guelph Central takes up a literal hour, or three times longer than the train travel time between Kitchener GO and Guelph Central. Adding additional rail service is leaps and bounds better for the speed alone.

That's not an apples-to-apples comparison, though: from Victoria/Frederick to Guelph Central seems to be about 32-34 minutes.

If you want to compare train travel time then you need to add the 15 minutes (plus connection time) for the LRT as well--or the bus ride from Laurier.