Farmland conversion and landfill sites

[danbrotherston]

IMO expropriation is an extreme measure. The land expropriated should be required to be used DIRECTLY for the common good, and maintained in common ownership. The idea that the government can take my house---even at fair market value---and give it to a private corporation for nothing more than the "promise" of jobs...is frankly, abhorrent. If the government really thinks that maintaining industrial lands is in the common interest, they can be a landlord and manage them.

This happening in the past does not make it right now...

As for alternatives...the alternative of lower GDP growth isn't exactly the horrific outcome that neocons would like you to think. Europe has had much lower GDP growth than the US and yet Europe is a far better place to live.

And that's before you even get into anything as radical as questioning capitalism...Europe is strongly capitalist.

Europe is also strongly protectionist and physically not connected to the US. We are in a rough spot and can’t be as independent as you would think, or else things get a lot worse. It’s already a significant productivity and growth gap between us and the US. We can’t cover that up by being physically distant from the US like Europe can. People will get mad if the quality of life gap gets bigger over time. Europe also gives a metric fuckton of subsidies to their own industry for better or worse…

Handouts to industry is annoying and yet here we are..

If there is one thing nobody in Canada is worried about, it's us having a lower quality of life than the US. Like I said, the only people worried about the growing productivity gap are Chicago school economists and the politicians they have enthralled. The rest of us are looking at the reality of living in the two countries and feeling pretty fucking smug about Canada's choices.

I do agree that Europe is in a better place compared with Canada in terms of ability to resist US influence.

Also, what Bytor says is absolutely true, the problem is not the subsidies for industry, which as you correctly point out occurs in Europe as well, but the use of government power to seize private land with no consultation and transfer that land to wealthy private (likely foreign) corporations for private enrichment. When framed that way, I cannot believe that anyone supports it.

[danbrotherston]

Wilmot dairy farmer and his family left in limbo
Mountainoak's Gouda cheese is famous, but that won't help Arjo Van Bergeijk keep his dairy farm.

Yes ... and probably twice the price of good-quality Dutch Gouda, which cannot be freely imported.

Okay, now the issue is personal....Mountainoak is damn good cheese!

[danbrotherston]

This came up in a different thread (on the townships). I didn't realize this was an expropriation. To me, that's completely unacceptable. Should farms be converted to industrial is a question we can discuss. But whether our government should use the power of eminent domain to seize land from individuals and give it to a private company for private use and private wealth...that is unquestionably wrong. I don't know why it is even being considered?

As for the "NIMBY" aspect...I would argue that concerns about a toxic, polluting factory next to a farm is much more legitimate than concerns about the wrong kind of people living next to me is.

Expropriation by municipalities of farm land for industrial use is far from uncommon.

If true...that is a very unpleasant thing to learn...

But again, to be clear, it is not expropriation, or even necessarily the use that is bad.

Expropriation of land (any land) by a government and transfer of that land to a private, for profit, corporation is the problem. Eminent domain should not be used for the benefit of corporations, it should be used directly for the benefit of the commons only.

If the government feels that industrial use is so important to the common benefit of our society, they should own the land and lease it.

[nms]

This site is roughly equidistant between the Cambridge and Woodstock Toyota plants, but somewhat removed from any possible rail connection.

The farmers are largely upset because they were promised enough money to buy a new farm, but the price being offered won't allow them to buy a farm in Waterloo Region at the current prices.

[danbrotherston]

This site is roughly equidistant between the Cambridge and Woodstock Toyota plants, but somewhat removed from any possible rail connection.

The farmers are largely upset because they were promised enough money to buy a new farm, but the price being offered won't allow them to buy a farm in Waterloo Region at the current prices.

It's almost as if arable farm land is in short supply.

[westwardloo]

Expropriation by municipalities of farm land for industrial use is far from uncommon.

If true...that is a very unpleasant thing to learn...

But again, to be clear, it is not expropriation, or even necessarily the use that is bad.

Expropriation of land (any land) by a government and transfer of that land to a private, for profit, corporation is the problem. Eminent domain should not be used for the benefit of corporations, it should be used directly for the benefit of the commons only.

If the government feels that industrial use is so important to the common benefit of our society, they should own the land and lease it.

That's is where we are free to disagree. In my opinion a manufacturer that will provided thousands of jobs to the region and probably 1000's of spin off manufacturing jobs will provide a common benefit to our society, so I have no problem with expropriation in this case. 

A land assembly of this size would be impossible without expropriation.

[danbrotherston]

If true...that is a very unpleasant thing to learn...

But again, to be clear, it is not expropriation, or even necessarily the use that is bad.

Expropriation of land (any land) by a government and transfer of that land to a private, for profit, corporation is the problem. Eminent domain should not be used for the benefit of corporations, it should be used directly for the benefit of the commons only.

If the government feels that industrial use is so important to the common benefit of our society, they should own the land and lease it.

That's is where we are free to disagree. In my opinion a manufacturer that will provided thousands of jobs to the region and probably 1000's of spin off manufacturing jobs will provide a common benefit to our society, so I have no problem with expropriation in this case. 

A land assembly of this size would be impossible without expropriation.

Why would a land assembly of this size be impossible without expropriation? Housing developers assemble six properties inside and outside of the city all the time. There's no reason to suggest that such an assembly is impossible.

I am not saying that jobs are not a benefit to society, but you misunderstand what I mean when I say "commons". The jobs, the property, will all be owned and controlled by private interests. Whether the jobs benefit the city doesn't change whether the property is private or not.

Like I said, if the city (and by implication you, and all who support this) feel that industrial lands of that scale are valuable enough to justify expropriation, then the city should expropriate those lands and retain ownership of the property by the public, and then lease them to whatever corporation they feel will best utilize the land. That way, the public retains control over the common property.

[westwardloo]

That's is where we are free to disagree. In my opinion a manufacturer that will provided thousands of jobs to the region and probably 1000's of spin off manufacturing jobs will provide a common benefit to our society, so I have no problem with expropriation in this case. 

A land assembly of this size would be impossible without expropriation.

Why would a land assembly of this size be impossible without expropriation? Housing developers assemble six properties inside and outside of the city all the time. There's no reason to suggest that such an assembly is impossible.

I am not saying that jobs are not a benefit to society, but you misunderstand what I mean when I say "commons". The jobs, the property, will all be owned and controlled by private interests. Whether the jobs benefit the city doesn't change whether the property is private or not.

Like I said, if the city (and by implication you, and all who support this) feel that industrial lands of that scale are valuable enough to justify expropriation, then the city should expropriate those lands and retain ownership of the property by the public, and then lease them to whatever corporation they feel will best utilize the land. That way, the public retains control over the common property.

Those land assemblies take place over the years sometimes decades. We do not have that type of timeline for a project of this scale. 

The Region would take on way too much liability to own the land that a factory of this size would be on. I can't see the municipalities legal department wanting to take on this much risk.  The tax revenue from this project would be worth more to the public then the liability of being the landlord.

[tomh009]

Yes ... and probably twice the price of good-quality Dutch Gouda, which cannot be freely imported.

Okay, now the issue is personal....Mountainoak is damn good cheese!

Not saying it isn't. But I think you have already personally seen how much cheaper good-quality cheese is in Europe--and even in the US.

[Acitta]

Okay, now the issue is personal....Mountainoak is damn good cheese!

Not saying it isn't. But I think you have already personally seen how much cheaper good-quality cheese is in Europe--and even in the US.

Prices are higher because of supply management.

[danbrotherston]

Why would a land assembly of this size be impossible without expropriation? Housing developers assemble six properties inside and outside of the city all the time. There's no reason to suggest that such an assembly is impossible.

I am not saying that jobs are not a benefit to society, but you misunderstand what I mean when I say "commons". The jobs, the property, will all be owned and controlled by private interests. Whether the jobs benefit the city doesn't change whether the property is private or not.

Like I said, if the city (and by implication you, and all who support this) feel that industrial lands of that scale are valuable enough to justify expropriation, then the city should expropriate those lands and retain ownership of the property by the public, and then lease them to whatever corporation they feel will best utilize the land. That way, the public retains control over the common property.

Those land assemblies take place over the years sometimes decades. We do not have that type of timeline for a project of this scale. 

The Region would take on way too much liability to own the land that a factory of this size would be on. I can't see the municipalities legal department wanting to take on this much risk.  The tax revenue from this project would be worth more to the public then the liability of being the landlord.

So....we're not patient enough? Companies don't go build a factory of this size on a whim, same with housing developers.

And if the government is unwilling to take on that liability, why would that be? What is the liability? Are we expecting the industrial tenant to contaminate the land? Run an unsafe work site? What? I feel like that's actually a reason to retain MORE control over the industrial tenant, not less. In fact, I'd argue that if that was the justification, that's shirking our responsibility.

And I'm not saying that these choices aren't free....but we're so ready to bend over backwards for a corporation, we'll give them anything they ask for...why are we so pathetic about this. If we have valuable land and labour resources, *WE* have the power in this negotiation.

And don't tell me that the factory will just go to another city...maybe, but that's why we should have solidarity.

[danbrotherston]

Okay, now the issue is personal....Mountainoak is damn good cheese!

Not saying it isn't. But I think you have already personally seen how much cheaper good-quality cheese is in Europe--and even in the US.

I wouldn't say cheese is cheaper here, but the quality is definitely higher...maybe that's saying roughly the same thing.

But I still would be disappointed if Mountainoak was sacrificed to the gods of economic growth.

[tomh009]

Not saying it isn't. But I think you have already personally seen how much cheaper good-quality cheese is in Europe--and even in the US.

Prices are higher because of supply management.

Exactly. And none of the major parties are willing to touch that, the dairy and egg farmers have political clout way beyond their numbers.

[panamaniac]

Europe is also strongly protectionist and physically not connected to the US. We are in a rough spot and can’t be as independent as you would think, or else things get a lot worse. It’s already a significant productivity and growth gap between us and the US. We can’t cover that up by being physically distant from the US like Europe can. People will get mad if the quality of life gap gets bigger over time. Europe also gives a metric fuckton of subsidies to their own industry for better or worse…

Handouts to industry is annoying and yet here we are..

If there is one thing nobody in Canada is worried about, it's us having a lower quality of life than the US. Like I said, the only people worried about the growing productivity gap are Chicago school economists and the politicians they have enthralled. The rest of us are looking at the reality of living in the two countries and feeling pretty fucking smug about Canada's choices.

I do agree that Europe is in a better place compared with Canada in terms of ability to resist US influence.

Also, what Bytor says is absolutely true, the problem is not the subsidies for industry, which as you correctly point out occurs in Europe as well, but the use of government power to seize private land with no consultation and transfer that land to wealthy private (likely foreign) corporations for private enrichment. When framed that way, I cannot believe that anyone supports it.

Again, expropriation for industrial land is not uncommon.  Nobody's breaking new ground here (so to speak).

[Acitta]

X thread from Pfennings Farm
"From today's media release: Over the past few weeks, a devastating, destructive plan has come to light in our community. While the current project does not directly implicate our farm, the effects are far reaching for the farming community and our family farm business."