Farmland conversion and landfill sites

[westwardloo]

Crop rotation offers the most effective, indirect method of minimizing pest, disease and weed problems and maintaining and enhancing soil structure and fertility. Crop rotations can limit build-up of weeds that are favored in a single crop environment.

I didn't want to get into crop rotation of Rainrider22 comments, but hearing they don't do crop rotation would make the blood boil of every farmer I know.  

[creative]

Not a farmer but I did Agricultural (herbicide, pesticide, seed) marketing for a long time and would totally agree.

[Rainrider22]

You know, this site has become brutal for conversation...No wonder hardly anyone wants to post anything anymore, its not worth all the experts on here that know everything telling you your wronfg or whatever... When I started on here many many years there were a lot of people posting... now its always the same few...

[westwardloo]

You  know, this site has become brutal for conversation...No wonder hardly anyone wants to post anything anymore, its not worth all the experts on here that know everything telling you your wronfg or whatever... When I started on here many many years there were a lot of people posting... now its always the same few...

I am open to a conversation. Seems like you have a way of making 20-50x as much per acre then the average farmer. Would love to hear the secret?

[tomh009]

Just for some perspective, Soybeans fetch an average of 1.00 a pound or 2000.00 per ton. average 9 to 10 tons per acre is 18 k to 20 k / acre.  Still make more money in two years than the cash being offered.  Mind you, you have overhead  That is an entirely different story... seed, fuel, fertilizer, taxes, equipment costs. crop insurance etc,   Farmers make good money on that land... Again,  just pointing out some numbers.  Overall, like I said, it would likely benefit many more people to be made industrial than remain agriculture.

"More people benefit"...it's basically impossible to quantify the "benefit" of being more self-reliant by growing more food locally and on productive land. I don't think that's something you can attach a dollar value too, which is why it is so easy for politicians to sell this, in today's world, largely ephemeral benefit for some jobs.

Sadly, most of the soybeans grown in Canada are for cattle feed only, not for people.

[ac3r]

That's true for a lot of the crops we grow. A huge portion of it ends up being produced for things like seed oil production and animal feed, with a lot of that being exported. We import a lot of the food we actually eat because it's cheaper for the consumer. Unless people would be willing to pay even more money for food, stores will prefer to source things from USA or Mexico.

[westwardloo]

I think the main reason expropriation is going to take place here is due to the tight timeline. Honda or more likely Toyota wants to start design and construction ASAP. They have already mentioned that the are more than willing to build the factory in the USA. If ontario wants this factory we need to act quickly.  Does is suck that a large multinational corporation can hold this much power? Yes, but the alternative is no investment and GDP growth in the province continues to trend in the Negative direction while the Economy of USA and Mexico flourish, leaving canada as the forgotten northern neighbour.  

Farm land was 100% expropriated for the original Toyota plant. This is no different.  Personally I think our region is better off because we have Toyota, but I understand that a lot of people prefer things to never change. 

The farmers are upset, but they now they are getting bank, I stand by this push to stop the land assembly is from the neighbours in New Hamburg that will be living next to a Factory.

[tomh009]

So many soybeans grown in Canada yet the edamame in the stores comes from China ...

[danbrotherston]

"More people benefit"...it's basically impossible to quantify the "benefit" of being more self-reliant by growing more food locally and on productive land. I don't think that's something you can attach a dollar value too, which is why it is so easy for politicians to sell this, in today's world, largely ephemeral benefit for some jobs.

Sadly, most of the soybeans grown in Canada are for cattle feed only, not for people.

Indeed! And indeed sadly.

As for crop rotation...it is only possible to not rotate crops long term because of artificial fertilizers and pesticides, which are problematic and unsustainable in other ways. Certainly the green revolution (not environmentally related) has been enabled by them, but we do need to move towards more sustainable practices.

[danbrotherston]

I think the main reason expropriation is going to take place here is due to the tight timeline. Honda or more likely Toyota wants to start design and construction ASAP. They have already mentioned that the are more than willing to build the factory in the USA. If ontario wants this factory we need to act quickly.  Does is suck that a large multinational corporation can hold this much power? Yes, but the alternative is no investment and GDP growth in the province continues to trend in the Negative direction while the Economy of USA and Mexico flourish, leaving canada as the forgotten northern neighbour.  

Farm land was 100% expropriated for the original Toyota plant. This is no different.  Personally I think our region is better off because we have Toyota, but I understand that a lot of people prefer things to never change. 

The farmers are upset, but they now they are getting bank, I stand by this push to stop the land assembly is from the neighbours in New Hamburg that will be living next to a Factory.

IMO expropriation is an extreme measure. The land expropriated should be required to be used DIRECTLY for the common good, and maintained in common ownership. The idea that the government can take my house---even at fair market value---and give it to a private corporation for nothing more than the "promise" of jobs...is frankly, abhorrent. If the government really thinks that maintaining industrial lands is in the common interest, they can be a landlord and manage them.

This happening in the past does not make it right now...

As for alternatives...the alternative of lower GDP growth isn't exactly the horrific outcome that neocons would like you to think. Europe has had much lower GDP growth than the US and yet Europe is a far better place to live.

And that's before you even get into anything as radical as questioning capitalism...Europe is strongly capitalist.

[Acitta]

Wilmot dairy farmer and his family left in limbo
Mountainoak's Gouda cheese is famous, but that won't help Arjo Van Bergeijk keep his dairy farm.

[bravado]

I think the main reason expropriation is going to take place here is due to the tight timeline. Honda or more likely Toyota wants to start design and construction ASAP. They have already mentioned that the are more than willing to build the factory in the USA. If ontario wants this factory we need to act quickly.  Does is suck that a large multinational corporation can hold this much power? Yes, but the alternative is no investment and GDP growth in the province continues to trend in the Negative direction while the Economy of USA and Mexico flourish, leaving canada as the forgotten northern neighbour.  

Farm land was 100% expropriated for the original Toyota plant. This is no different.  Personally I think our region is better off because we have Toyota, but I understand that a lot of people prefer things to never change. 

The farmers are upset, but they now they are getting bank, I stand by this push to stop the land assembly is from the neighbours in New Hamburg that will be living next to a Factory.

IMO expropriation is an extreme measure. The land expropriated should be required to be used DIRECTLY for the common good, and maintained in common ownership. The idea that the government can take my house---even at fair market value---and give it to a private corporation for nothing more than the "promise" of jobs...is frankly, abhorrent. If the government really thinks that maintaining industrial lands is in the common interest, they can be a landlord and manage them.

This happening in the past does not make it right now...

As for alternatives...the alternative of lower GDP growth isn't exactly the horrific outcome that neocons would like you to think. Europe has had much lower GDP growth than the US and yet Europe is a far better place to live.

And that's before you even get into anything as radical as questioning capitalism...Europe is strongly capitalist.

Europe is also strongly protectionist and physically not connected to the US. We are in a rough spot and can’t be as independent as you would think, or else things get a lot worse. It’s already a significant productivity and growth gap between us and the US. We can’t cover that up by being physically distant from the US like Europe can. People will get mad if the quality of life gap gets bigger over time. Europe also gives a metric fuckton of subsidies to their own industry for better or worse…

Handouts to industry is annoying and yet here we are..

[tomh009]

Wilmot dairy farmer and his family left in limbo
Mountainoak's Gouda cheese is famous, but that won't help Arjo Van Bergeijk keep his dairy farm.

Yes ... and probably twice the price of good-quality Dutch Gouda, which cannot be freely imported.

[Bytor]

Does is suck that a large multinational corporation can hold this much power? Yes ... but I understand that a lot of people prefer things to never change. 

Just throwing up your hands and letting the corporations retain that power is the best way of ensuring that things never change.

Because the farmers are not fighting against a new factory, they are fighting against the government shadily going around without public consultation to get this land for a corporation.

The solution is not expropriation to enrich a corporation, but the provincial government helping the factory maker find an appropriate location, of which there are no doubt multiple spots in the province, comprised of willing sellers.

[panamaniac]

I live on a farm and although we rent the land out, both me and my partners families are from a farming background. I can tell you with almost 100% certainty that farmers don't make anywhere close to 18k per acres.  Maybe $500 per acres on a good year. Soybeans can't be grown each year either, you typically rotate the crop between corn, wheat and soybeans. 

https://farmersforum.com/eastern-ontario...e-of-land/

These farmers are getting paid well to relocate. Does it suck, absolutely. 

Really it is the Neighbours that are the ones that are really pissed about this. They aren't getting the pay day and they will be living next to a giant factory. 100% this is more of a NIMBY issue then they want it to seem.

This came up in a different thread (on the townships). I didn't realize this was an expropriation. To me, that's completely unacceptable. Should farms be converted to industrial is a question we can discuss. But whether our government should use the power of eminent domain to seize land from individuals and give it to a private company for private use and private wealth...that is unquestionably wrong. I don't know why it is even being considered?

As for the "NIMBY" aspect...I would argue that concerns about a toxic, polluting factory next to a farm is much more legitimate than concerns about the wrong kind of people living next to me is.

Expropriation by municipalities of farm land for industrial use is far from uncommon.