ION Phase 2 - Cambridge's Light Rail Transit

[westwardloo]

Heard from a pretty reliable source that Regional Staff will be recommend terminating phase 2 at Ainslie station and removing Main st station from phase 2 at the December 5th council meeting.

[bravado]

Heard from a pretty reliable source that Regional Staff will be recommend terminating phase 2 at Ainslie station and removing Main st station from phase 2 at the December 5th council meeting.

It wouldn't be Canadian infrastructure if compromising into mediocrity wasn't the daily objective of leadership. We'll see if this is true and how it goes! It's still better than the Mayor's hare-brained scheme to go to Main + Dundas.

[KevinL]

Heard from a pretty reliable source that Regional Staff will be recommend terminating phase 2 at Ainslie station and removing Main st station from phase 2 at the December 5th council meeting.

This has, indeed, gone ahead. Ainslie Street LRT terminal endorsed unanimously for Cambridge 

[Bytor]

What we need is a push for some infill stations to get roughed in and then added a few years later. Speedsville Rd and Dundas/Beverly/Soper Park are good ones for Stage 2, and Sunnyvale/Albert McCormick for Stage 2.

[Bytor]

Heard from a pretty reliable source that Regional Staff will be recommend terminating phase 2 at Ainslie station and removing Main st station from phase 2 at the December 5th council meeting.

It wouldn't be Canadian infrastructure if compromising into mediocrity wasn't the daily objective of leadership. We'll see if this is true and how it goes! It's still better than the Mayor's hare-brained scheme to go to Main + Dundas.

Stations at Ainslie and Main would be a little close, only 250m, closer than anything in DTK.

[Bytor]

Heard from a pretty reliable source that Regional Staff will be recommend terminating phase 2 at Ainslie station and removing Main st station from phase 2 at the December 5th council meeting.

This has, indeed, gone ahead. Ainslie Street LRT terminal endorsed unanimously for Cambridge 

And from Jan Liggett's comments, she didn't learn anything from the report and went all noble martyr routine to vote with the report for unanimity's sake.

[bravado]

It wouldn't be Canadian infrastructure if compromising into mediocrity wasn't the daily objective of leadership. We'll see if this is true and how it goes! It's still better than the Mayor's hare-brained scheme to go to Main + Dundas.

Stations at Ainslie and Main would be a little close, only 250m, closer than anything in DTK.

It’s pretty close, but downtown Galt is uniquely small and compact due to geography. There’s no other spot for a station along the line other than Soper Park, but the lack of density around there would be a hard sell. I’m afraid that Ainslie would be quite busy as the only available station for most people.

[the_conestoga_guy]

Some news today in the Record about Phase 2 and the upcoming business case - expected to be ready "end of 2025."

https://archive.is/VUc4R

The business case will now also consider several scenarios:

• the original full proposal to extend the Ion 18 kilometres from Fairway station in Kitchener to downtown Galt;
  
• a shorter route from Fairway to Pinebush Road for $2.9 billion,
  
• a mid-length route from Fairway to the Delta in Cambridge for $3.9 billion;
  
• a stand-alone Cambridge LRT from Preston to downtown Galt with a bus link to Fairway;
  
• bus rapid transit, where buses would travel from Fairway to downtown Galt on dedicated lanes and have traffic signal priority.
  

I've personally wondered about option 4 (assuming it still follows the original Hespeler Rd alignment) as a possible interim option, with a BRT link between Preston and Fairway. At this point, I'd be happy to even see a full BRT system. It would at least reserve the space for upgrading to rail in the future while also making Hespeler Rd a more livable space.

[SF22]

Some news today in the Record about Phase 2 and the upcoming business case - expected to be ready "end of 2025."

https://archive.is/VUc4R

The business case will now also consider several scenarios:

• the original full proposal to extend the Ion 18 kilometres from Fairway station in Kitchener to downtown Galt;
  
• a shorter route from Fairway to Pinebush Road for $2.9 billion,
  
• a mid-length route from Fairway to the Delta in Cambridge for $3.9 billion;
  
• a stand-alone Cambridge LRT from Preston to downtown Galt with a bus link to Fairway;
  
• bus rapid transit, where buses would travel from Fairway to downtown Galt on dedicated lanes and have traffic signal priority.
  

I've personally wondered about option 4 (assuming it still follows the original Hespeler Rd alignment) as a possible interim option, with a BRT link between Preston and Fairway. At this point, I'd be happy to even see a full BRT system. It would at least reserve the space for upgrading to rail in the future while also making Hespeler Rd a more livable space.

How could there be a separated Cambridge line? You'd have to build a second maintenance building in Cambridge somewhere, which would be another large land acquisition and then the cost to actually build the thing. I'd love to see the breakdown of cost on that option vs the original Cross-The-Grand plan.

"If approved, Phase 2 construction could start in 2032 and would likely take five or six years." So looking at 2037/38 as our best-case scenario, which is EIGHTEEN YEARS after the completion of Phase 1 (June 2019). Was there ever any indication that it would take so long? If they are serious about doing a Phase 3, I sincerely hope that we get started on the proposals long before Phase 2 is underway.

[danbrotherston]

Some news today in the Record about Phase 2 and the upcoming business case - expected to be ready "end of 2025."

https://archive.is/VUc4R


I've personally wondered about option 4 (assuming it still follows the original Hespeler Rd alignment) as a possible interim option, with a BRT link between Preston and Fairway. At this point, I'd be happy to even see a full BRT system. It would at least reserve the space for upgrading to rail in the future while also making Hespeler Rd a more livable space.

How could there be a separated Cambridge line? You'd have to build a second maintenance building in Cambridge somewhere, which would be another large land acquisition and then the cost to actually build the thing. I'd love to see the breakdown of cost on that option vs the original Cross-The-Grand plan.

"If approved, Phase 2 construction could start in 2032 and would likely take five or six years." So looking at 2037/38 as our best-case scenario, which is EIGHTEEN YEARS after the completion of Phase 1 (June 2019). Was there ever any indication that it would take so long? If they are serious about doing a Phase 3, I sincerely hope that we get started on the proposals long before Phase 2 is underway.

I kinda figured this would be the timeframe...honestly...but I'm a cynic.

I think a separated line doesn't make much sense. Cambridge just by itself probably doesn't justify an LRT. And without connecting to the rest of the region it doesn't serve as a regional connector/integrator. If the city was large enough, it probably would make sense, but it just isn't that big.

Honestly, I am disappointed.  I want to see politicians push back on these absurd cost projections. Chuck at Strongtowns had a good podcast recently about the problems with procurement in NA.

[ijmorlan]

I kinda figured this would be the timeframe...honestly...but I'm a cynic.

I think a separated line doesn't make much sense. Cambridge just by itself probably doesn't justify an LRT. And without connecting to the rest of the region it doesn't serve as a regional connector/integrator. If the city was large enough, it probably would make sense, but it just isn't that big.

I agree. We should spend money on the line between the cities, not on a redundant maintenance facility. I do think there should be a storage facility in Cambridge to improve the logistics of starting and stopping service, but maintenance can all be done at Dutton Drive. A storage facility could be as simple as long tail tracks at the end of the line. Store a few more vehicles on the main line, on the approach to the last station, overnight.

Honestly, I am disappointed.  I want to see politicians push back on these absurd cost projections. Chuck at Strongtowns had a good podcast recently about the problems with procurement in NA.

Also agreed. If an LRT is unaffordable, highways should be super-unaffordable. The basic preparation for an LRT is essentially two lanes’ worth of grading and bridgebuilding (or tunnelling, if appropriate). The basic preparation for a highway is essentially eight lanes’ worth of the same for a basic 4 lane highway (don’t forget the shoulders). Once that is done, how expensive can rails and concrete ties really be? Signalling? Have computer chips suddenly gotten more expensive? Has steel suddenly gone up in price by a factor of 100?

Something is seriously wrong if basic LRT construction has become unaffordable, and what’s wrong isn’t the desire to build public transportation.

[bravado]

I can’t stress this enough: if Cambridge gets a second-class product out of this process it will only give evidence to the worst types that the Region doesn’t give a shit about us.

There’s no valid reason for these costs and delays.

Also, if a train is 300% too expensive that means schools and hospitals and sewers are also 300% too expensive and then our society ends. It’s weird that nobody in power cares about this.

[SF22]

I can’t stress this enough: if Cambridge gets a second-class product out of this process it will only give evidence to the worst types that the Region doesn’t give a shit about us.

There’s no valid reason for these costs and delays.

Also, if a train is 300% too expensive that means schools and hospitals and sewers are also 300% too expensive and then our society ends. It’s weird that nobody in power cares about this.

I wish someone had tracked the reasons for the various delays over the years. The most recent one was a Cambridge regional councilor tried to push for the terminus to get moved from Galt to Dundas, and that took us down a rabbit hole for a few months with new studies to confirm that people wanted the station in downtown Galt like it had always been proposed. It was totally a waste of time and money to arrive at the same conclusion we'd been at for years.

[the_conestoga_guy]

How could there be a separated Cambridge line? You'd have to build a second maintenance building in Cambridge somewhere, which would be another large land acquisition and then the cost to actually build the thing. I'd love to see the breakdown of cost on that option vs the original Cross-The-Grand plan.

"If approved, Phase 2 construction could start in 2032 and would likely take five or six years." So looking at 2037/38 as our best-case scenario, which is EIGHTEEN YEARS after the completion of Phase 1 (June 2019). Was there ever any indication that it would take so long? If they are serious about doing a Phase 3, I sincerely hope that we get started on the proposals long before Phase 2 is underway.

I kinda figured this would be the timeframe...honestly...but I'm a cynic.

I think a separated line doesn't make much sense. Cambridge just by itself probably doesn't justify an LRT. And without connecting to the rest of the region it doesn't serve as a regional connector/integrator. If the city was large enough, it probably would make sense, but it just isn't that big.

Honestly, I am disappointed.  I want to see politicians push back on these absurd cost projections. Chuck at Strongtowns had a good podcast recently about the problems with procurement in NA.

I didn't think of the need for a second maintenance facility, so I take back what I said. That seems like it would be needlessly redundant. The cynic in me says that Cambridge may actually prefer to have their own system, since they don't seem to want to share resources with the rest of the Region. Considering the article says that this will be 100% provincially and federally funded, it doesn't matter as much to me if they want to spend a little extra on the new facility instead of on a bridge over the Grand.

I do disagree with the idea that Cambridge doesn't warrant an LRT by itself. In the Canadian context, sure, it shouldn't have one. But we've all seen enough NJB videos to know that we shouldn't be striving to meet "Canadian" standards. I think having some sort of robust transit backbone could do wonders for the city.

[danbrotherston]

I kinda figured this would be the timeframe...honestly...but I'm a cynic.

I think a separated line doesn't make much sense. Cambridge just by itself probably doesn't justify an LRT. And without connecting to the rest of the region it doesn't serve as a regional connector/integrator. If the city was large enough, it probably would make sense, but it just isn't that big.

Honestly, I am disappointed.  I want to see politicians push back on these absurd cost projections. Chuck at Strongtowns had a good podcast recently about the problems with procurement in NA.

I didn't think of the need for a second maintenance facility, so I take back what I said. That seems like it would be needlessly redundant. The cynic in me says that Cambridge may actually prefer to have their own system, since they don't seem to want to share resources with the rest of the Region. Considering the article says that this will be 100% provincially and federally funded, it doesn't matter as much to me if they want to spend a little extra on the new facility instead of on a bridge over the Grand.

I do disagree with the idea that Cambridge doesn't warrant an LRT by itself. In the Canadian context, sure, it shouldn't have one. But we've all seen enough NJB videos to know that we shouldn't be striving to meet "Canadian" standards. I think having some sort of robust transit backbone could do wonders for the city.

I mean, the problem is that it isn't just transit. But if the city council wants to build an overpriced LRT with federal/provincial funds at the same time as unilaterally overruling every NIMBY in the city, 10Xing density by wrote across the entire city, eliminate parking restrictions, and most other zoning restrictions, and narrow every street to make room for bike lanes...

Well, I will gladly support it (and eat my hat if it helps).