ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit

[danbrotherston]

This would require...*some* investment in completing the station buildout.

If done properly, yes. But I thought they could run double length trains  without doing the station buildout, no? I thought it was just "should have" amenities like extra shelters, displays, payment terminals, etc. that are missing, and not any "must haves" like operational infrastructure.

I mean...fair enough, that's possible, but I'd argue we'd be slamming them for that too.

I think it's moot anyway, they don't have enough spares to pair up all the trains...which would lead to inconsistent capacity not a good experience. So we'd need to order more trains with the normal lag time for that.

A significant fraction of council. Last year it was a slight majority...we'll see if it remains so this year I suppose.

Voted to increase the budget yes, but that's a far cry from what you've suggested. Intentional mischaracterization isn't helping anything. To stay on topic, I really don't think public transit budgets and related discourse would look any different if the police vanished as a municipal responsibility tomorrow.

I mean, if you want to call it a mischaracterization for the majority of council...fair enough, but it is absolutely not a mischaracterization for some of council, who spoke very passionately about the absolute necessity to vote the police a significant surplus, and one of whom sits on the police board.

To my eye at least several of these councillors strongly oppose all spending except police. If that is not how they actually feel, they should act differently, rather than just protesting otherwise.

[tomh009]

They mean 30 minute frequency, which is ridiculous for an LRT system.

Do you have a link for the complete document?

[dtkvictim]

I mean...fair enough, that's possible, but I'd argue we'd be slamming them for that too.

I think it's moot anyway, they don't have enough spares to pair up all the trains...which would lead to inconsistent capacity not a good experience. So we'd need to order more trains with the normal lag time for that.

Yeah my expectation would be that they build out the stations ASAP, but I'd be temporarily understanding if ridership spiked beyond their predictions.

But yes, moot point if there isn't enough trains anyways, that's what I was curious about. I know there isn't enough trains to double up all of them, but I was thinking along the lines of doubling the peak trains going through the busiest areas, for example the trains going through downtown/Conestoga/universities around 8:20-8:50am. I think the unexpected overcrowding is coming from Conestoga students, so something like this could buy time to find more money or renegotiate the contract (assuming it doesn't already break the contract) since usage patterns wouldn't change much (i.e. continue to grow) for the current school year.

I know nothing about transit and train operations though, I'm just curious.

[Bob_McBob]

Do you have a link for the complete document?

It's a slide from a staff presentation at the October 18 budget review at the Strategic Planning and Budget Committee. You can find it in the agenda linked here.

https://www.regionofwaterloo.ca/en/regio...-Committee

The point of this proposal is to avoid a budget increase to provide the level of daytime service required by current demand. Their reasoning is that the region "doesn't need" the capacity in the morning and evening because ION is "complemented" by Route 7. Bizarrely, they even highlight the fact that ION has very low operating costs.

Deutchmann mentions that the only time he typically uses ION is when he goes out for dinner in the evening, and also asks about the impact on students taking night classes. The staff member again claims it will have no impact because Route 7 runs along a "substantial" portion of the ION route and complements it with 15 minute service frequency. They also claim 30 minute frequency "matches the demand profile" but then immediately admits it's still entirely about maintaining the current contact capacity without any budget increase. And then they later go on to specifically highlight how high frequency affects LRT usage because people don't have to rely on trip planners, while making this proposal.

https://youtu.be/3g8EhYtZ6fE?t=8440

[ac3r]

If they think the 7 is sufficient they are utterly clueless. Those buses fill up so much you can barely get off when it's your stop. Everyone is shoulder to shoulder. Even the LRT is like that so it makes no sense to reduce the frequency.

I'm glad I rarely have to come to Waterloo Region now as I'm mostly working and living in Toronto. At least they know how to run transit systems.

[tomh009]

Thanks! The extra insight is very helpful.

[tomh009]

Looking at the actual (draft) budget book, this is what it has for LRT. Here there is no mention of the evening/early morning frequency reduction. In any case, these are just staff proposals at the moment, this will be a regional council decision.

   

[ijmorlan]

I'm glad I rarely have to come to Waterloo Region now as I'm mostly working and living in Toronto. At least they know how to run transit systems.

Actually the modern TTC doesn’t know 💩 about running a transit system properly, although many of its front-line employees continue to make valiant efforts.

But even so they still have pretty good service on some lines and from what I understand the subway still runs pretty well.

[ijmorlan]

I know nothing about transit and train operations though, I'm just curious.

Great questions! I’m going to suggest that you aren’t going to see doubling along part of the route. That would require a point where all the doubles are split off and attached to trips running the other way. This is obviously possible but even with modern coupling equipment they don’t like having coupling/uncoupling happen partway through a trip. It takes time to perform the maneuvers and increases the complexity of operations.

[dtkvictim]

I know nothing about transit and train operations though, I'm just curious.

Great questions! I’m going to suggest that you aren’t going to see doubling along part of the route. That would require a point where all the doubles are split off and attached to trips running the other way. This is obviously possible but even with modern coupling equipment they don’t like having coupling/uncoupling happen partway through a trip. It takes time to perform the maneuvers and increases the complexity of operations.

I imagine the passengers on the extra unit would be the bigger problem in that scenario haha. But what I was suggesting was that the trains which would be at the busiest segments at the busiest times would leave the yard already doubled.

If I'm not mistaken when I was in Tokyo there was signage at platforms suggesting trains on the same line fluctuate between 8/12/16 car trains throughout the day (or maybe I'm mistaken and it was just signage for different lines), so presumably it's a reasonable thing to do. But at 10 minute headways we would need 4 extra trains to cover just 20 minutes bi-directionally, which I don't think we even have?

[tomh009]

If I'm not mistaken when I was in Tokyo there was signage at platforms suggesting trains on the same line fluctuate between 8/12/16 car trains throughout the day (or maybe I'm mistaken and it was just signage for different lines)

Yes, it's quite common in Tokyo for the smaller lines to run shorter trains off-peak (the very busy ones always run the full-length trains).

The only train I know in the Tokyo area that does the car-splitting is the Narita Express, which splits at Tokyo station, with half continuing to Yokohama and the other half toward Shinjuku. It takes a while for them to do that split. (Passengers are not a problem in that case since it's all reserved seating and you would get a seat in the appropriate car based on your destination.)

[plam]

If I'm not mistaken when I was in Tokyo there was signage at platforms suggesting trains on the same line fluctuate between 8/12/16 car trains throughout the day (or maybe I'm mistaken and it was just signage for different lines)

Yes, it's quite common in Tokyo for the smaller lines to run shorter trains off-peak (the very busy ones always run the full-length trains).

The only train I know in the Tokyo area that does the car-splitting is the Narita Express, which splits at Tokyo station, with half continuing to Yokohama and the other half toward Shinjuku. It takes a while for them to do that split. (Passengers are not a problem in that case since it's all reserved seating and you would get a seat in the appropriate car based on your destination.)

Montreal metro line 5 also ran short trains with limited opening hours for a while (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Line_...eal_Metro)). I don't think they switched between short trains and long trains. It didn't quite go far enough east to hit Pie-IX and the population there. Now that extension is out for tender, apparently.

The Via train also does car splitting from Toronto to Montreal/Ottawa.

[ijmorlan]

The Via train also does car splitting from Toronto to Montreal/Ottawa.

I believe that one is two trains coupled together: engine and cars to one destination, followed by engine and cars to the other destination. I don’t know if they go in the other direction: first train arrives at meeting point and waits for second one to arrive and couple up behind. So it’s only the same complexity as the LRT example would be: they don’t have to do anything complicated to shuffle cars around, just split/combine 2 trains. Also, there is no way for passengers to be in the wrong part short of climbing on top of the engine in the middle.

[nms]

From what I understand, each platform is currently built to accommodate a double train-set without any modifications. The added bits would be another station sign and shelter which could presumably be added after service was increased.

With a current fleet of 14 trains, with 12 in service at peak times, and 2 held in reserve or servicing, the Region currently does not have the capacity to increase to double trainsets on a regular basis. Does anyone remember what triggers the Region buying more trainsets? It is it adding Ion Part 2? What's the current storage capacity at the Maintenance Yard?

[KevinL]

I don't know the trigger, but yard capacity is not a serious issue - they just need to add a few rows of storage tracks beside the existing ones (see the middle section here).