Road design, safety and Vision Zero

[danbrotherston]

I do think that the Ottawa St S roundabouts are much closer to the Dutch one in terms of design, though.

Erm? The ones at Homer-Watson and Alpine?

I would ahh...disagree with that.

I haven't seen the one at Westmount Rd though...but my recollection was not...favourable...

[Bytor]

But the difference between them could not be more stark.

So let's look at these two roundabouts with a reasonable eye, eh?

For vehicles, they enter and leave the same way. They come up to the round about, have shark's teeth telling them to yield, and then they enter. The difference is that the Ira Needles one is a bit like a small Dutch turbo-roundabout done with paint instead of curbs.

For pedestrians, the crosswalks on ours are as far back from the roundabout as they are from the Dutch ones. It merely seems like our pedestrian crossings are further because there's no cycle path between the sidewalk and the vehicle roundabout. Notably, our shark's teeth to yield for pedestrians are set back much farther than the Dutch ones, providing that space for a car or two to stop and wait for pedestrians without backing up the roundabout, just like you mentioned Twitter.

Functionally they are pretty much the same, especially with respect to pedestrians. While our roundabouts could be tweaked, driver attitude and aggressiveness is a far bigger problem than roundabout engineering.

[jamincan]

One area where the Dutch do much better is indicating priority with different surface colours, and often grades ie. the cars have the bump to go over the sidewalk rather than a crosswalk being at grade with the cars.

[danbrotherston]

But the difference between them could not be more stark.

So let's look at these two roundabouts with a reasonable eye, eh?

For vehicles, they enter and leave the same way. They come up to the round about, have shark's teeth telling them to yield, and then they enter. The difference is that the Ira Needles one is a bit like a small Dutch turbo-roundabout done with paint instead of curbs.

For pedestrians, the crosswalks on ours are as far back from the roundabout as they are from the Dutch ones. It merely seems like our pedestrian crossings are further because there's no cycle path between the sidewalk and the vehicle roundabout. Notably, our shark's teeth to yield for pedestrians are set back much farther than the Dutch ones, providing that space for a car or two to stop and wait for pedestrians without backing up the roundabout, just like you mentioned Twitter.

Functionally they are pretty much the same, especially with respect to pedestrians. While our roundabouts could be tweaked, driver attitude and aggressiveness is a far bigger problem than roundabout engineering.

This is definitely true, the sharks teeth are in the wrong place...but I think there are a few reasons for this.

The biggest and most relevant one is the more aggressive dangerous relationship between drivers and everyone else.

Here, when I am approaching a crossing and a car pulls up to it...and stops RIGHT in front of it, I feel no trepidation about the driver not stopping. They are traveling all of 20km/h and usually in a much smaller car, in a much narrower lane. It just feels safer.

Where as in Canada, if that driver doesn't stop a good 10 yards back, you better believe they're getting a dirty look, and no way in hell am I getting near them before they stop, because I'm a good 5 meters from the next curb, and they're traveling 40-50km/h in a 2 tonne pickup truck two inches over my head....

So yeah, the context definitely matters.

But I do believe that engineering is as big or bigger an issue. Driver attitude and behaviour (and vehicle selection) is a huge problem, but if you put a Dutch driver in a Canadian roundabout, they are going to behave similarly to a Canadian driver, IMO.  The reverse might be harder to achieve, but I still thing engineering is the key.

[danbrotherston]

One area where the Dutch do much better is indicating priority with different surface colours, and often grades ie. the cars have the bump to go over the sidewalk rather than a crosswalk being at grade with the cars.

Oh yes...SO MUCH.

And it's interesting, because it's not that consistent. Colours aren't consistent--bike lanes are usually red, but sometimes red means shared, and sometimes red just means brick--our sidewalk is yellow, but others are grey, and others still are red...

What matters is that the design is clear and intuitive...I said this before...intuitive matters more than standardized. Standardization is just ONE WAY to improve intuitiveness, and frankly, probably one of the worst ways.

And you can't see it in the picture (except by the markings) but every single crossing here is raised...EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. And speed bumps are everywhere.

That being said, it does lag here on walkability and especially accessibility. Sidewalks are very often blocked, and drop curbs are also frequently missing. Everyone has room to improve.

[dtkvictim]

Here, when I am approaching a crossing and a car pulls up to it...and stops RIGHT in front of it, I feel no trepidation about the driver not stopping. They are traveling all of 20km/h and usually in a much smaller car, in a much narrower lane. It just feels safer.

There is definitely a "tipping point" within the context too. In Japan cars turning left (right in Canada) pull around the corner right up to the pedestrian crossing while waiting for pedestrians to clear, and I also never doubted that they would stop. Cars doing that here though feels pushy and uncomfortable, and I do have doubts that they will stop for pedestrians. The difference being that 1) cars are expecting pedestrians 100% of the time, and 2) it may be the only way for a car to make a gap between the crowds of pedestrians.

But there is a tipping point when pedestrian volumes are low and car volumes are high, so the context suggests you don't need to slow down and watch out for pedestrians. This makes the environment so hostile to the few pedestrians that they get worn down and eventually disappear by avoiding the area entirely.

But I do believe that engineering is as big or bigger an issue. Driver attitude and behaviour (and vehicle selection) is a huge problem, but if you put a Dutch driver in a Canadian roundabout, they are going to behave similarly to a Canadian driver, IMO.  The reverse might be harder to achieve, but I still thing engineering is the key.

I do also wonder if some of these problems are just inherent to the large 2 lane roundabouts we almost exclusively build. My impression of the Netherlands is that at-grade roundabouts are almost all a single lane, and multi-lane roundabouts are usually grade separated. This would suggest that cheaper engineering solutions being suggested here aren't adequate for multi-lane roundabouts.

[tomh009]

I do also wonder if some of these problems are just inherent to the large 2 lane roundabouts we almost exclusively build. My impression of the Netherlands is that at-grade roundabouts are almost all a single lane, and multi-lane roundabouts are usually grade separated. This would suggest that cheaper engineering solutions being suggested here aren't adequate for multi-lane roundabouts.

UK is full of roundabouts, and many of them with two (or more) lanes. But grade separation is exceedingly rare, at least where I have driven or walked there.

[ac3r]

https://www.reddit.com/r/kitchener/comme...ord_every/

The replies say everything you need to know about local driver culture. Holy shit.

Fuck cars but this guy is a moron. What kind of person just blindly walks across an intersection like this? Whether or not you legally have the right of way you should always stop, ensure there are no cars speeding through and attempt to make eye contact with drivers to ensure they see you. And damn...don't hold your phone out to record it while trying to keep things in frame - further decreasing your situational awareness - just to get Reddit karma points and sympathy from the fuck car crowd on Reddit.

Stop and look both ways is something children learn when they're in grade school. I guess this guy forgot.

[Bytor]

Fuck cars but this guy is a moron. What kind of person just blindly walks across an intersection like this?

To say he blindly walked out is a blatant mischaracterisation of what the person did.

They clearly looked, you can tell that the way the camera was pointed.

That car took about 2.5 seconds to go from the edge of the roundabout to front wheels on top of the shark's teeth, a 12m distance. From that we can math it out that the car was going an average of 20km/h and a maximum of 3025km/h assuming starting pseed of 1-0km/h as it reached the shark's teeth.  So, again, slow moving car, perfectly reasonable to assume it had been OK to start crossing.

But then, a mere 0.5 seconds later, that car is at the crosswalk nearly hitting the pedestrian who is about 1/3rd the way across, 6m further on. Math again tells us that to have covered 6m in 0.5s they need to have doubled their average speed to about 40km/h for final velocity of 50+km/h on reach the crosswalk. Math tells that we're talking about an accelleration of under 2m/s² up to the shark's teeth and then about 20m/s² after it to double their speed.

(edited for doing the actual math instead of just doing it in my head)

So what we see is a person who started to cross with a slow moving car, doing less than 3020km/h a ways back with more than plenty time to stop npt only by the sharks teeth, but also definitely before the edge of the crosswalk. A completely reasonable decision.

Whether or not you legally have the right of way you should always stop, ensure there are no cars speeding through

As I show above when the pedestrian made the decision to enter the crosswalk, the only care was slow moving, under 30km/h and a fair distance back with ample space and time to stop. There were no cars speeding through when they entered the crosswalk.

and attempt to make eye contact with drivers to ensure they see you.

Horse-puckey. All that does is place all the responsibility on the pedestrian and absolves on the driver.

The pedestrian doesn't have to point. The pedestrian doesn't have to make eye contact.  The pedestrian's only responsibility at a crosswalk like this is to note the vehicle's speed and distance and judge whether the driver can reasonable stop in time. And for a car doing less than 30km/h about 20m away, it is reasonable to judge that they can stop.

Stop and look both ways is something children learn when they're in grade school. I guess this guy forgot.

Don't be ridiculous. there is a pedestrian island so it is effectively a one way street. You don't need to look both ways at that point, only to your left, which they were doing.

[Acitta]

Fuck cars but this guy is a moron. What kind of person just blindly walks across an intersection like this?

To say he blindly walked out is a blatant mischaracterisation of what the person did.

Also, there is not one, but two signs in each direction that say "stop for pedestrians".     

[danbrotherston]

Thank you folks for that detailed takedown of the extremely bad take. It was more polite than I could have managed. I don’t know how even here some people see that video and so fundamentally misunderstand what they see.

I am so tired of “pedestrian blindly walked into traffic” used to describe a situation where a pedestrian literally on video carefully looked for traffic.

[danbrotherston]

Here, when I am approaching a crossing and a car pulls up to it...and stops RIGHT in front of it, I feel no trepidation about the driver not stopping. They are traveling all of 20km/h and usually in a much smaller car, in a much narrower lane. It just feels safer.

There is definitely a "tipping point" within the context too. In Japan cars turning left (right in Canada) pull around the corner right up to the pedestrian crossing while waiting for pedestrians to clear, and I also never doubted that they would stop. Cars doing that here though feels pushy and uncomfortable, and I do have doubts that they will stop for pedestrians. The difference being that 1) cars are expecting pedestrians 100% of the time, and 2) it may be the only way for a car to make a gap between the crowds of pedestrians.

But there is a tipping point when pedestrian volumes are low and car volumes are high, so the context suggests you don't need to slow down and watch out for pedestrians. This makes the environment so hostile to the few pedestrians that they get worn down and eventually disappear by avoiding the area entirely.

But I do believe that engineering is as big or bigger an issue. Driver attitude and behaviour (and vehicle selection) is a huge problem, but if you put a Dutch driver in a Canadian roundabout, they are going to behave similarly to a Canadian driver, IMO.  The reverse might be harder to achieve, but I still thing engineering is the key.

I do also wonder if some of these problems are just inherent to the large 2 lane roundabouts we almost exclusively build. My impression of the Netherlands is that at-grade roundabouts are almost all a single lane, and multi-lane roundabouts are usually grade separated. This would suggest that cheaper engineering solutions being suggested here aren't adequate for multi-lane roundabouts.

Two lane vs. one lane is definitely one issue. FWIW I picked the roundabout at Victoria and Ira Needles specifically, it's one of the smaller roundabouts (not even fully 2 lanes) and while it probably carries more traffic than the ones here, I doubt it needs to be a as big as it is.

It is interesting that the roads actually narrow at the roundabout. Not just in width, but in lanes. The service roads end (the bike lanes continue) and sometimes the transit lanes merge into the general lanes--actually the example one I showed the transit lanes don't merge, and you can see different crossing configurations.

You can see here a two lane roundabout where I live, it is actually VERY similar to some of the large roundabouts in KW, with right turn bypass lanes and all.

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.1940944,...a=!3m1!1e3

It does have grade separated crossing, as the Dutch generally won't mix 70+km/h traffic with cycling and walking, but even so, the geometry of the roundabout is still very very different from Waterloo's design. The approach lanes are straight reaching the roundabout are pretty nearly straight until reaching the circle, and the exit lanes are also not contoured. I guarantee you traffic is moving slower through here than almost any roundabout in KW.

But it's still a huge roundabout and easily capable of handling any of the traffic in KW.

The example I showed first, I did mainly because it is so typical, there are 13 of them on the arterial road through the suburb we are in and they are all more or less the same modern design you find everywhere with minor configuration differences.

The biggest differences are probably here:

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.1959157,...a=!3m1!1e3

Where the highway interchange is, you can tell the volumes are higher here and they do avoid crossing the highest volume sections because they can avoid it in this context, but it still does have at grade crossings of two lane roundabouts. (I would also note that the markings and low curbs probably eliminate the most common types of collisions we have between cars in our roundabouts where drivers turn improperly...why is this so hard for us?)

You can also see the geometry is a little more contoured here to improve flow, but it is ONLY contoured where there isn't a crossing.

There are also some interesting one off roundabouts in the city like this one I go through on a daily basis:

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.1447597,...a=!3m1!1e3

Which is totally weird in that it is between 7 streets but only 4 of them actually intersect for cars at this location, and the main road (Kersenbaan) is actually inaccessible (mostly) from the roundabout (in the underpass) and 2 are accessible only by bike and foot.

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.1585203,...a=!3m1!1e3

And this other monster^ is probably the most interesting. It also has an underpass for the main road, but ramps still connect it with the roundabout. This one actually carries a lot of traffic and feels very busy when you use it, but I haven't had any issues with it.

You'll notice it's not actually a circle, and instead and oval, and I think that is to further increase the sharpness of the turns for the main through road and decrease speeds since it is so large. And there is extra space for vehicles to queue when the crossings are blocked.

So yeah, definitely not a "one size fits all" situation, but the principles for safe design are still visible everywhere.

[dtkvictim]

So yeah, definitely not a "one size fits all" situation, but the principles for safe design are still visible everywhere.

That is quite the collection of roundabouts. They all certainly feel, at least from streetview, much safer.

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.1585203,...a=!3m1!1e3

And this other monster^ is probably the most interesting. It also has an underpass for the main road, but ramps still connect it with the roundabout. This one actually carries a lot of traffic and feels very busy when you use it, but I haven't had any issues with it.

Hah, I recognized this one immediately. Back before being forced to take down his videos, most of the Ambuchannel drives started off going through here.

[danbrotherston]

So yeah, definitely not a "one size fits all" situation, but the principles for safe design are still visible everywhere.

That is quite the collection of roundabouts. They all certainly feel, at least from streetview, much safer.

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.1585203,...a=!3m1!1e3

And this other monster^ is probably the most interesting. It also has an underpass for the main road, but ramps still connect it with the roundabout. This one actually carries a lot of traffic and feels very busy when you use it, but I haven't had any issues with it.

Hah, I recognized this one immediately. Back before being forced to take down his videos, most of the Ambuchannel drives started off going through here.

Ha, I'd never heard of him before. That really is a shame.

[Bob_McBob]

There's a near-complete archive of Ambuchannel videos available here:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1...sp=sharing