GO Transit

[plam]

I also don't think you'll find freight sharing tracks with passenger service (at least not frequent passenger service) very often.

Wasn't uncommon to see Swiss freight passing through on passenger platforms, though it wasn't *common* either.

[jamincan]

The CN Halton Subdivision is a main artery for freight traffic and is important for both CN operations
and the overall Ontario economy. Project development work conducted by Metrolinx determined that
additional track capacity will be required to deliver the proposed service increases. The corridor would
consist of three and four track segments, with two tracks primarily used for freight traffic and the
remaining track(s) more utilized for passenger movements; although the dynamic nature of trains
sharing a corridor mean that all tracks are available to all traffic when required. Train meets will typically
be scheduled at locations with two passenger tracks; however, co-production (operating both
passenger and freight trains on the same set of tracks) will also be used to enable train meets in
constrained portions of the network.

For what it's worth, Metrolinx believes the 3-4 tracks in the corridor west of Bramalea can meet frequency requirements. That includes 15 minute peak direction and 30 minute 2WAD service to Mount Pleasant GO.

[Bytor]

It won't accomplish the stated goals.

Even if you grade separate Silver Junction west of Georgetown, that whole CN-owned bit (the Halton Sub) from there to Bramalea where Metrolinx ownership resumes has too few tracks to accommodate both freight and passenger traffic. Most of it is only 2 tracks, except for about 4km between Brampton and Bramalea GO stations. There's simply not enough to share to make #2WADGO possible.

How many freights do they run? We’re only talking about one passenger train per hour in each direction. One track should be able to handle a train every 30 minutes — one freight and one passenger per hour. If not, we’re doing something wrong and need to do a field trip to Europe to see how it’s done. We seem to need way more tracks here than they do. I believe the issue at the junction has to do with crossing movements, not with the inherent capacity of two tracks in the absence of conflicts between tracks.

Part of the problem is speed. Passenger trains run a lot faster than 2km long freight trains.

Another part of it is rail traffic control and how that affects capacity. Rail lines are divided into blocks and a one train cannot enter a block until the train ahead of it has cleared the block. Block sizes vary based on how long the trains are and how fast they are moving and are made so that a train can throw on the brakes and stop before leaving their block and not crash into the one in the next block. Trains are scheduled into time slots to use a block based on when that block becomes clear.

Freight trains that are not only longer than passenger trains with but also take more to slow down means that block sizes are larger and travel more slowly than passenger trains which means that a train takes longer to clear it, and all that adds up to mean fewer time slots.

If it were only passenger trains it would be doable because the blocks would shorter and the trains would clear them more quickly and you thus have more time slots, but when you're talking about really long freight trains that need huge blocks and move through them so slow, the next timeslot through a block might be 2 hours later instead of 10 minutes later with only passenger trains.

In TL;DR speak, that's a capacity issue.

Now a grade separations might help trains move through some blocks faster, but if you look at the aerial view of Georgetown GO to Silver, you'll see that it's dedicated track from the station to the Guelph Sub to get to Kitchener. Google maps regular view gets the tracks wrong, BTW, and doesn't show that dedicated track from the Georgetown GO station. There's not really that much contention there so capacity improvements from a Silver grade separation would be limited. To quote somebody with far more rail knowledge than I "Grade separating anything at Silver either means you rebuild the entirety of Georgetown GO or you construct the biggest white elephant in GO's history."

This stretch of CN track from Bramalea to Georgetown is one of their busiest sections and all their traffic from Québec and the Maritimes must go through it to get to the USA, and vice versa. All of that freight traffic (which is growing, BTW) has to squeeze down to two tracks past Mount Pleasant GO is difficult at best, which is why GO hourly frequency has stopped there on the line. They don't have the time slots to make hourly passenger trains possible to Kitchener without addressing the capacity issues cause by not enough tracks.

So, yes, it is the "inherent capacity" of those two tracks which is the biggest limiting factor preventing 2WADGO to Kitchener.

[Bytor]

The CN Halton Subdivision is a main artery for freight traffic and is important for both CN operations
and the overall Ontario economy. Project development work conducted by Metrolinx determined that
additional track capacity will be required to deliver the proposed service increases. The corridor would
consist of three and four track segments, with two tracks primarily used for freight traffic and the
remaining track(s) more utilized for passenger movements; although the dynamic nature of trains
sharing a corridor mean that all tracks are available to all traffic when required. Train meets will typically
be scheduled at locations with two passenger tracks; however, co-production (operating both
passenger and freight trains on the same set of tracks) will also be used to enable train meets in
constrained portions of the network.

For what it's worth, Metrolinx believes the 3-4 tracks in the corridor west of Bramalea can meet frequency requirements. That includes 15 minute peak direction and 30 minute 2WAD service to Mount Pleasant GO.

The three tracks only go to Mount Pleasant, which is why hourly service has stopped there and gone no further. And even then there are big gaps and it's never been hourly all day long.

[jamincan]

Part of the improvements planned on the line according to the Business Plan are 3rd and 4th tracks on the Halton Subdivision. Two of the tracks would be mostly dedicated to freight movements and the passenger movements would be able to be scheduled on the remaining tracks for the most part. The grade separation isn't required for 2wad to Kitchener, it is required to give the operational flexibility to deal with delays etc. and would therefore allow higher speed service on the line.

[dtkvictim]

First phase of work to expand Kitchener GO Line service kicks off:

https://blog.metrolinx.com/2022/05/03/fi...kicks-off/

[jwilliamson]

passing track in Breslau Township

[danbrotherston]

That's interesting. For context...a GO train will traverse the 3.6 km in just over 2 minutes at 100km/h (a moderate top speed for GO trains--they can go much faster but usually don't).

How often are Kitchener line trains arriving within 2 minutes of their scheduled arrival time? If they arrive outside this scheduled arrival time they will delay the outgoing train.

Passing tracks can work, but they are very fragile to any scheduling issues like one might have when sharing with freight.

[jamincan]

Currently GO schedules 20 minutes between Kitchener and Guelph, which I think means this specific passing track should only really be needed for the 30 minute service in peak directions with the 2-way service pattern. I wonder if they would delay departure in Kitchener to synchronize with the departure in Guelph in order to make it more likely that they meet on time at the passing track.

[danbrotherston]

Currently GO schedules 20 minutes between Kitchener and Guelph, which I think means this specific passing track should only really be needed for the 30 minute service in peak directions with the 2-way service pattern. I wonder if they would delay departure in Kitchener to synchronize with the departure in Guelph in order to make it more likely that they meet on time at the passing track.

I mean, delaying in Kitchener vs. delaying in Breslau makes little difference at this point.

If the train is going to need to wait it's going to be delayed getting to all the other destinations. The schedule will either need a lot of slack (leading to longer trip times) or it is going to be unreliable in it's arrival time.

[jamincan]

Currently GO schedules 20 minutes between Kitchener and Guelph, which I think means this specific passing track should only really be needed for the 30 minute service in peak directions with the 2-way service pattern. I wonder if they would delay departure in Kitchener to synchronize with the departure in Guelph in order to make it more likely that they meet on time at the passing track.

I mean, delaying in Kitchener vs. delaying in Breslau makes little difference at this point.

If the train is going to need to wait it's going to be delayed getting to all the other destinations. The schedule will either need a lot of slack (leading to longer trip times) or it is going to be unreliable in it's arrival time.

It makes a difference with travel time - stopping in Breslau adds a second required acceleration that delaying in Kitchener wouldn't have.

[jamincan]

Genuinely, what would Metrolinx need to do to convince people that they are actually proceeding with their plans for 2WAD service on the line? I hear criticism that they don't have a plan for 2WAD service, and when I point out that they do have a plan, the argument becomes that they have no plan to implement it, and when I point out that they've already started work that is identified as required in the plan, the argument becomes that the plan won't actually do what the plan sets out to do. Fair enough if that is true, but I haven't seen an actual criticism of the plan - ie. looking at scheduling patterns etc. If there is information along those lines, I'd love to see it.

It's not that I don't think some amount of cynicism is warranted, governments certainly pull the rug out from projects all the time, but in the cynical takes I keep seeing seem clearly counterfactual - ie. at this point in time Metrolinx is proceeding with implementing plans for 2WAD service to Kitchener. People may be skeptical about the plan, they may cynically about government commitment to the plan, but at this point in time, Metrolinx does have a plan, and they are proceeding with implementing it.

[robd]

Genuinely, what would Metrolinx need to do to convince people that they are actually proceeding with their plans for 2WAD service on the line? I hear criticism that they don't have a plan for 2WAD service, and when I point out that they do have a plan, the argument becomes that they have no plan to implement it, and when I point out that they've already started work that is identified as required in the plan, the argument becomes that the plan won't actually do what the plan sets out to do. Fair enough if that is true, but I haven't seen an actual criticism of the plan - ie. looking at scheduling patterns etc. If there is information along those lines, I'd love to see it.

It's not that I don't think some amount of cynicism is warranted, governments certainly pull the rug out from projects all the time, but in the cynical takes I keep seeing seem clearly counterfactual - ie. at this point in time Metrolinx is proceeding with implementing plans for 2WAD service to Kitchener. People may be skeptical about the plan, they may cynically about government commitment to the plan, but at this point in time, Metrolinx does have a plan, and they are proceeding with implementing it.

Progress feels like the hwy7 project, or Morriston bypass. Plans are renounced close to election time and then the movement is far too slow. I'm not confident that even with the correct willingness we are able to build the necessary infrastructure timely.

I would be more convinced if there was a real improvement in transit. It has deteriorated significantly with the pandemic. The fact that the region has population growth of above 2% a year, is 100km from Toronto and has no real transportation options outside of rush hour doesn't inspire confidence. 

Direct bus routes would be a start, 7 days a week.

[jamincan]

Genuinely, what would Metrolinx need to do to convince people that they are actually proceeding with their plans for 2WAD service on the line? I hear criticism that they don't have a plan for 2WAD service, and when I point out that they do have a plan, the argument becomes that they have no plan to implement it, and when I point out that they've already started work that is identified as required in the plan, the argument becomes that the plan won't actually do what the plan sets out to do. Fair enough if that is true, but I haven't seen an actual criticism of the plan - ie. looking at scheduling patterns etc. If there is information along those lines, I'd love to see it.

It's not that I don't think some amount of cynicism is warranted, governments certainly pull the rug out from projects all the time, but in the cynical takes I keep seeing seem clearly counterfactual - ie. at this point in time Metrolinx is proceeding with implementing plans for 2WAD service to Kitchener. People may be skeptical about the plan, they may cynically about government commitment to the plan, but at this point in time, Metrolinx does have a plan, and they are proceeding with implementing it.

Progress feels like the hwy7 project, or Morriston bypass. Plans are renounced close to election time and then the movement is far too slow. I'm not confident that even with the correct willingness we are able to build the necessary infrastructure timely.

I would be more convinced if there was a real improvement in transit. It has deteriorated significantly with the pandemic. The fact that the region has population growth of above 2% a year, is 100km from Toronto and has no real transportation options outside of rush hour doesn't inspire confidence. 

Direct bus routes would be a start, 7 days a week.

Metrolinx could definitely do better. The reduction in scheduled trips on the Kitchener Line is mystifying and bus service to Hamilton seems like such an obvious fit for Metrolinx that it's hard to understand why it still doesn't exist.

With regard to 2WAD service on the Kitchener Line, though, the business plan was only approved in March 2021, and they have already made improvements that have allowed scheduled times on the line to drop (at least that is what I've read elsewhere, and I can't say if there's since been a regression). The pessimist in me worries that it could end up being another Hwy 7, but the optimist in me takes encouragement from the fact that there appears to be progress without all the fanfare and ribbon-cutting, which hopefully means that there is more substance behind it than Hwy 7.

[Bytor]

With regard to 2WAD service on the Kitchener Line, though, the business plan was only approved in March 2021, and they have already made improvements that have allowed scheduled times on the line to drop (at least that is what I've read elsewhere, and I can't say if there's since been a regression). The pessimist in me worries that it could end up being another Hwy 7, but the optimist in me takes encouragement from the fact that there appears to be progress without all the fanfare and ribbon-cutting, which hopefully means that there is more substance behind it than Hwy 7.

You're still ignoring the Bramalea→Georgetown bottleneck which the Liberal government had gotten CN to agree to in principle just prior to the election.

After the election, during which a promise was made by Ford&Co. to get #2WADGO "sooner" than the Liberals, they cancelled that bypass with vague claims of working with CN to make it possible on the Kitchener line. This meant all that planning to get around the bottleneck had to be redone. When it became obvious that the section of that line still owned by CN was just far, far too busy with freight to simply slot it enough trains to reach the hourly both ways promise to Kitchener, they started vaguely talking about adding extra tracks to the bottleneck part in the Halton Sub.

It took them three years to finally put out that preliminary business case in 2021 for a project they had promised would be finished in 2024/25 and it only vaguely mentioned extra passing tracks in the Halton Sub but not where. In comparison, the Breslau passing tracks were mentioned before the initial business case was released in 2019.

A year later after that preliminary case they still have no plans at all where exactly the extra tracks in the Halton Sub would be laid to alleviate the capacity issues in the bottleneck, or at least none they have made public.

The EAs/TPAPs for this current work and anything else done outside the bottleneck were completed back in 2009-2014 and as of yet no new EA/TPAP has been started for these vaguely mentioned extra tracks in the Halton Sub.

At best, nothing done until now was not already planned under the Liberals, but in reality they have delayed many things like the improvements you cite that allowed quicker trip times because Metrolinx was ordered to halt everything for two years while they went into review mode.

Plus, the choices that the Tories have made are OK short term choices for adding a few extra trains to Kitchener but they do nothing for the long run, perhaps even hurt the long run, as electrifying all the way to Kitchener will require complete separation of freight and passenger lines given CN's refusal on those projects, and, ultimately, require the cancelled bypass getting built anyways.