GO Transit

[danbrotherston]

Yes, I am aware they have a plan, and I have seen it as you've sent it to me, but I still don't think the plan is realistic, I don't think they will achieve frequent all day two way with it.

Do you mean the plan won’t accomplish the stated goals, or that the plan won’t be funded?

It seems obvious to me that if we built the grade separation and did the other improvements, it should then be possible to run the stated service. But it seems equally obvious to me that there is a good chance the government will take forever to provide funding for the plan. So if you’re saying there is no plan to implement the plan, I probably agree with you. If you’re saying the plan, if implemented, wouldn’t accomplish the goal, then I’m confused.

I mean, I think there's merits behind both points.

In terms of whether a grade separation and other improvements will lead to "frequent all day two way service", I think my skepticism from the fact that hourly service is barely "frequent" to begin with, and worse, that is actually the maximum capacity. Any delay, or issue will cause cascading delays. Running a system at peak capacity is not actually a good policy, and that's what I see proposed with minimal passing lanes on a single tracked system.

But yeah, I also see zero priority being put on implementing it. I mean, we've had a more realistic plan rebuild highway 7 for something like 4 decades and we are still not expecting that any time soon. Our government has repeatedly promised the world, and delivered nothing even remotely like it, now they've stopped talking, and are focusing only on the GTA.

[ac3r]

Considering Doug Ford is almost guaranteed to win another 4 years in office, I wouldn't be surprised if his government somehow guts funding for GO Transit to some degree, throwing yet another wrench in any plans. Conservatives don't like trains, sadly, they like highways.

[timio]

Conservatives like 905 voters, who like GO, so I'm doubtful we'd see a slash and burn approach.

[jamincan]

Do you mean the plan won’t accomplish the stated goals, or that the plan won’t be funded?

It seems obvious to me that if we built the grade separation and did the other improvements, it should then be possible to run the stated service. But it seems equally obvious to me that there is a good chance the government will take forever to provide funding for the plan. So if you’re saying there is no plan to implement the plan, I probably agree with you. If you’re saying the plan, if implemented, wouldn’t accomplish the goal, then I’m confused.

I mean, I think there's merits behind both points.

In terms of whether a grade separation and other improvements will lead to "frequent all day two way service", I think my skepticism from the fact that hourly service is barely "frequent" to begin with, and worse, that is actually the maximum capacity. Any delay, or issue will cause cascading delays. Running a system at peak capacity is not actually a good policy, and that's what I see proposed with minimal passing lanes on a single tracked system.

But yeah, I also see zero priority being put on implementing it. I mean, we've had a more realistic plan rebuild highway 7 for something like 4 decades and we are still not expecting that any time soon. Our government has repeatedly promised the world, and delivered nothing even remotely like it, now they've stopped talking, and are focusing only on the GTA.

The grade separation would give them to buffer room so that it's not running at it's maximum capacity. 2WAD is technically possible without, but it's riskier as you say. That is why the grade separation is preferred.

Metrolinx has also been taking steps to implement it, including making improvements to the line in the past year which have already lead to improved travel times and starting land acquisition for the grade separation. So I don't understand how you can justify your position that they have put zero priority on implementing it.

[Bytor]

There is literally a plan, and this is something like the third time I've linked it to you: https://www.metrolinx.com/en/regionalpla...-FINAL.pdf

There's a huge problem with this "plan" that has yet to be addressed by Metrolinx: the bottleneck between Bramalea and Georgetoen stations. You know, the one that the Liberals were going to build a bypass for CN so they could buy that section from them and make it all GO.

But then the Ford & Co. cancelled that plan, made vague promises that they would "work with" CN to make #2WADGO, and mentioned the possibility of Metrolinx adding tracks in that bottleneck so passenger traffic could have higher frequencies while continuing to share with and not be blocked by freight.

However, there's been no announcements on that, no press releases saying the Province and CN have come to an agreement on those extra tracks, no tenders put to bid, and we're a scant three years away from the 2024/2025 promise of #2WADGO that the Liberals made and that Ford & Co. said they would do it faster.

A plan is useless if you don't do the things necessary to complete it.

[SammyOES]

Metrolinx has also been taking steps to implement it, including making improvements to the line in the past year which have already lead to improved travel times and starting land acquisition for the grade separation. So I don't understand how you can justify your position that they have put zero priority on implementing it.

To be fair, this is pretty much what I said 4 years ago about highway 7. Land had been purchased, prep work was being done, a complete plan for implementation was in the works… and then everything stopped for 3 years and we’re just now getting back to “prep work” and “planning”.

I think highway 7 and significant GO service to KW are similar in that the powers that be think it’s important to work on the project but don’t really care about the end state.

[timio]

On a cynical note, Guelph and urban KW didn't vote PC last election and are unlikely to do so again this time around. Why would you "reward" these voters with shiny things when they're not going to support you at the polls?

Partisan politics is great.

[tomh009]

On a cynical note, Guelph and urban KW didn't vote PC last election and are unlikely to do so again this time around. Why would you "reward" these voters with shiny things when they're not going to support you at the polls?

Well ... arguably partisan spending isn't (or shouldn't be) to reward people who voted for you last time, but, rather, to incent people to vote for you next time (and win more seats).

[SammyOES]

The PCs won 2 seats in the area by less than a thousand votes in an election with a large amount of vote splitting between NDP/Liberals. It’s baffling to me that they haven’t tried harder to win votes here. Like even just being better at the standard pretending to care.

This particularly applies to the highway 7 work since it’s more up the alley of PC politics than GO transit.

[danbrotherston]

The PCs won 2 seats in the area by less than a thousand votes in an election with a large amount of vote splitting between NDP/Liberals.  It’s baffling to me that they haven’t tried harder to win votes here.  Like even just being better at the standard pretending to care.

This particularly applies to the highway 7 work since it’s more up the alley of PC politics than GO transit.

Even GO here is important to the specific seats that were won or very close (Cambridge and Rural) because those areas actually see the greatest interest in GO transit commuting (mind you, Cambridge folks want the Milton line extended...and I can't say I disagree).

[bravado]

The PCs won 2 seats in the area by less than a thousand votes in an election with a large amount of vote splitting between NDP/Liberals.  It’s baffling to me that they haven’t tried harder to win votes here.  Like even just being better at the standard pretending to care.

This particularly applies to the highway 7 work since it’s more up the alley of PC politics than GO transit.

Even GO here is important to the specific seats that were won or very close (Cambridge and Rural) because those areas actually see the greatest interest in GO transit commuting (mind you, Cambridge folks want the Milton line extended...and I can't say I disagree).

As someone who lives by the derelict and miserable rail station and yard on Samuelson in Cambridge, god I wish it could be something useful to the city

Hell, ION Phase 2 is supposed to go right by it on its way to downtown Galt.

[Bytor]

Do you mean the plan won’t accomplish the stated goals, or that the plan won’t be funded?

It seems obvious to me that if we built the grade separation and did the other improvements, it should then be possible to run the stated service. But it seems equally obvious to me that there is a good chance the government will take forever to provide funding for the plan. So if you’re saying there is no plan to implement the plan, I probably agree with you. If you’re saying the plan, if implemented, wouldn’t accomplish the goal, then I’m confused.

It won't accomplish the stated goals.

Even if you grade separate Silver Junction west of Georgetown, that whole CN-owned bit (the Halton Sub) from there to Bramalea where Metrolinx ownership resumes has too few tracks to accommodate both freight and passenger traffic. Most of it is only 2 tracks, except for about 4km between Brampton and Bramalea GO stations. There's simply not enough to share to make #2WADGO possible.

[KevinL]

Even if you grade separate Silver Junction west of Georgetown, that whole CN-owned bit (the Halton Sub) from there to Bramalea where Metrolinx ownership resumes has too few tracks to accommodate both freight and passenger traffic. Most of it is only 2 tracks, except for about 4km between Brampton and Bramalea GO stations. There's simply not enough to share to make #2WADGO possible.

Yup, which is why the Liberals floated the bypass to begin with - they knew it was the only practical solution.

[ijmorlan]

Do you mean the plan won’t accomplish the stated goals, or that the plan won’t be funded?

It seems obvious to me that if we built the grade separation and did the other improvements, it should then be possible to run the stated service. But it seems equally obvious to me that there is a good chance the government will take forever to provide funding for the plan. So if you’re saying there is no plan to implement the plan, I probably agree with you. If you’re saying the plan, if implemented, wouldn’t accomplish the goal, then I’m confused.

It won't accomplish the stated goals.

Even if you grade separate Silver Junction west of Georgetown, that whole CN-owned bit (the Halton Sub) from there to Bramalea where Metrolinx ownership resumes has too few tracks to accommodate both freight and passenger traffic. Most of it is only 2 tracks, except for about 4km between Brampton and Bramalea GO stations. There's simply not enough to share to make #2WADGO possible.

How many freights do they run? We’re only talking about one passenger train per hour in each direction. One track should be able to handle a train every 30 minutes — one freight and one passenger per hour. If not, we’re doing something wrong and need to do a field trip to Europe to see how it’s done. We seem to need way more tracks here than they do. I believe the issue at the junction has to do with crossing movements, not with the inherent capacity of two tracks in the absence of conflicts between tracks.

[danbrotherston]

It won't accomplish the stated goals.

Even if you grade separate Silver Junction west of Georgetown, that whole CN-owned bit (the Halton Sub) from there to Bramalea where Metrolinx ownership resumes has too few tracks to accommodate both freight and passenger traffic. Most of it is only 2 tracks, except for about 4km between Brampton and Bramalea GO stations. There's simply not enough to share to make #2WADGO possible.

How many freights do they run? We’re only talking about one passenger train per hour in each direction. One track should be able to handle a train every 30 minutes — one freight and one passenger per hour. If not, we’re doing something wrong and need to do a field trip to Europe to see how it’s done. We seem to need way more tracks here than they do. I believe the issue at the junction has to do with crossing movements, not with the inherent capacity of two tracks in the absence of conflicts between tracks.

It's their main freight rail line, so I'd guess it's quite a few.

That being said, why should a piece of track be able to handle a train every 30 minutes. It depends a lot on the specific trains it is running. Passenger trains should easily run every 30 minutes, because they're relatively short and fast. A single cross country freight train could take 10 minutes to pass. But even more problematic, those trains travel patterns are very different from passenger rail. Even more worse, those trains delay characteristics are different again...our passenger trains are ALREADY delayed due to freight delays, more frequent passenger services will just increase and cascade those delays.

There are two difference between Canada and Europe that apply here I think. For one, Canada runs vastly more freight by rail. I know its surprising for the undisputed king of the motor vehicle, but Europe runs a larger percentage of freight by truck than Canada or the US, so I think we just have more and bigger trains. I don't know how this applies directly to the GTA, but we're talking about a cross continent freight line here, so it probably applies. The other one is of scheduling. Freight trains are generally shorter in Europe which I suspect makes them easier to schedule around, and less prone to delays.

I also don't think you'll find freight sharing tracks with passenger service (at least not frequent passenger service) very often.