GO Transit

[KevinT]

In fact, the article you link supports me here--council made a decision. I believe that it was the wrong decision, but that isn't what I'm arguing here. All I am saying is that it was a CHOICE that we didn't go with Presto and saying it wasn't a choice because Presto didn't participate in the RFP is BS.

100% agree with you Dan. As ac3r pointed out, the value of seamless travel beyond the region is huge, and was opted against by not being willing to change the fare structure of our little corner of the province. That was a choice that could have been made, and wasn't.

[ac3r]

Region joins study to build all-day GO ridership: https://www.therecord.com/news/waterloo-...rship.html

[KevinL]

Some councillors said the region should be prioritizing transit within its own boundaries first.

“We don’t have to remind council that we need to get LRT into Cambridge,” Coun. Karl Kiefer said.

Township of North Dumfries Mayor Sue Foxton expressed a similar sentiment.

“We should have the whole Region of Waterloo connected,” she said.

I'm hearing a lot of 'no, but' when we can easily say 'yes, and'. Frustrating.

[ac3r]

Connecting the townships to the LRT would be interesting, if that's what the mayor of North Dumfries was implying. A bit too costly right now, but it would be a huge boom for the townships. You see small towns connected with light rail, trams and even trains in countries like England and Germany.

[danbrotherston]

Connecting the townships to the LRT would be interesting, if that's what the mayor of North Dumfries was implying. A bit too costly right now, but it would be a huge boom for the townships. You see small towns connected with light rail, trams and even trains in countries like England and Germany.

I think she was speaking of bus service...there's NO way LRT would be justified at this point, only Elmira can even begin to justify full bus service, even New Hamburg/Baden isn't supporting a full bus service at this point. Ayr wants bus service.

[ijmorlan]

I think she was speaking of bus service...there's NO way LRT would be justified at this point, only Elmira can even begin to justify full bus service, even New Hamburg/Baden isn't supporting a full bus service at this point. Ayr wants bus service.

I wouldn’t grant that. We build 4-lane roads out to new subdivisions with nobody living in them all the time; why not build LRT out to a small existing town and plan for the LRT rather than roads to take future traffic growth?

A student residence in Elmira straddling the tracks with elevators direct to platform level would be closer to UW in time than most existing student housing.

[danbrotherston]

I think she was speaking of bus service...there's NO way LRT would be justified at this point, only Elmira can even begin to justify full bus service, even New Hamburg/Baden isn't supporting a full bus service at this point. Ayr wants bus service.

I wouldn’t grant that. We build 4-lane roads out to new subdivisions with nobody living in them all the time; why not build LRT out to a small existing town and plan for the LRT rather than roads to take future traffic growth?

A student residence in Elmira straddling the tracks with elevators direct to platform level would be closer to UW in time than most existing student housing.

Hyperbole? Almost all existing student housing is within a 20 minute walk, and with the majority being less than 10 minutes from UW. When you include Laurier and Conestoga College the percentage of student oriented housing within 10 minute walk of a post secondary campus is probably >90%.

Elmira on the other hand, minimum travel time, by car, speeding straight down 85 from the south end of Elmira is already 15 minutes. No LRT is going to come close to being faster than walking from almost all student housing.

But I digress, I would love it if we prioritized transit in new developments. But I'm also realistic, a town of 4k (Ayr, where Sue Foxton is mayor) is not going to justify an LRT at any point in the foreseeable future. Mayor Foxton knows this, she was absolutely speaking about getting bus service to her area.

Even Elmira won't justify LRT while we have the current incentives and development plans in place. The only way for Elmira to justify LRT would be a 10x increase in the cost of driving, along with a 10x increase in density targets.

[ac3r]

Connecting the townships to the LRT would be interesting, if that's what the mayor of North Dumfries was implying. A bit too costly right now, but it would be a huge boom for the townships. You see small towns connected with light rail, trams and even trains in countries like England and Germany.

I think she was speaking of bus service...there's NO way LRT would be justified at this point, only Elmira can even begin to justify full bus service, even New Hamburg/Baden isn't supporting a full bus service at this point. Ayr wants bus service.

Yeah I figured it would be bus service. That said, a light rail connection would be really transformative though ridership wouldn't warrant that at all right now. But it would be a huge catalyst for growth in the suburbs, especially because you could easily run a LRV in the townships at high speed, making commuting into the city super fast.

Buses would be nice to see sometime. I love all the towns on our urban periphery but since I don't drive, I basically never get to visit them. With a bus, I'd gladly hop on and spend a day wandering around somewhere like Elmira.

[danbrotherston]

I think she was speaking of bus service...there's NO way LRT would be justified at this point, only Elmira can even begin to justify full bus service, even New Hamburg/Baden isn't supporting a full bus service at this point. Ayr wants bus service.

Yeah I figured it would be bus service. That said, a light rail connection would be really transformative though ridership wouldn't warrant that at all right now. But it would be a huge catalyst for growth in the suburbs, especially because you could easily run a LRV in the townships at high speed, making commuting into the city super fast.

Buses would be nice to see sometime. I love all the towns on our urban periphery but since I don't drive, I basically never get to visit them. With a bus, I'd gladly hop on and spend a day wandering around somewhere like Elmira.

This is an anti-goal.

I fully support buses to the townships, I've ridden the two we have multiple times. I also support better bike infra.

But ultimately, I'm a pragmatist, if I have to choose, I prefer to develop transit and density in the cities where it can have more impact.  We shouldn't have to choose, but sometimes we do anyway.

[ijmorlan]

I wouldn’t grant that. We build 4-lane roads out to new subdivisions with nobody living in them all the time; why not build LRT out to a small existing town and plan for the LRT rather than roads to take future traffic growth?

A student residence in Elmira straddling the tracks with elevators direct to platform level would be closer to UW in time than most existing student housing.

Hyperbole? Almost all existing student housing is within a 20 minute walk, and with the majority being less than 10 minutes from UW. When you include Laurier and Conestoga College the percentage of student oriented housing within 10 minute walk of a post secondary campus is probably >90%.

Elmira on the other hand, minimum travel time, by car, speeding straight down 85 from the south end of Elmira is already 15 minutes. No LRT is going to come close to being faster than walking from almost all student housing.

S Field Dr. in Elmira, at the tracks, to UW station is about 13km along the tracks, or 10 minutes at 80km/h.

So with the right LRT service, I think that compares pretty favourably to a lot of existing student commutes.

That being said, not every building could be literally on the station, and realistically if we ever get LRT to Elmira it would probably poke along at 70km/h, and depending on how many stops there are the real speed would be way below my 80km/h, and so on, but to just cede all interurban transport to road-based vehicles is in my opinion unambitious, especially in the medium to long term.

[jamincan]

A regional LRT service between New Hamburg and Guelph would be an interesting prospect. In particular, the villages around KW often have nice cores that are hard to replicate. It would be nice if we could build greater intensity around those centres without the commuting pattern defaulting to the car.

[plam]

And I wanted to reiterate ac3r's point that there is rail service to surprisingly small towns in Europe. It would be really nice to have that here. (But no, I don't think we have the political support for it).

[bravado]

And I wanted to reiterate ac3r's point that there is rail service to surprisingly small towns in Europe. It would be really nice to have that here. (But no, I don't think we have the political support for it).

Also: A lot of people from surrounding areas would likely rather drive to small towns and take a train into the big city. Thus, a small town could service more people than actually live there. This could be a good way to keep traffic in a better and more diffuse area out in the country.

[danbrotherston]

A regional LRT service between New Hamburg and Guelph would be an interesting prospect. In particular, the villages around KW often have nice cores that are hard to replicate. It would be nice if we could build greater intensity around those centres without the commuting pattern defaulting to the car.

Guelph to KW has some merit because of the size and density of each city, but given we have an existing rail line, it probably makes sense to utilize that. But New Hamburg and Baden are small and extremely sprawling (I know, I lived there) you aren't going to get many people on transit.

And I wanted to reiterate ac3r's point that there is rail service to surprisingly small towns in Europe. It would be really nice to have that here. (But no, I don't think we have the political support for it).

Also: A lot of people from surrounding areas would likely rather drive to small towns and take a train into the big city. Thus, a small town could service more people than actually live there. This could be a good way to keep traffic in a better and more diffuse area out in the country.

This would only be true if we significantly increased the cost and effort of driving into KW. Our government won't even consider restricting vehicle traffic at this point. These are not bad ideas, but they aren't ideas that make any sense in the current context in our city.

Hyperbole? Almost all existing student housing is within a 20 minute walk, and with the majority being less than 10 minutes from UW. When you include Laurier and Conestoga College the percentage of student oriented housing within 10 minute walk of a post secondary campus is probably >90%.

Elmira on the other hand, minimum travel time, by car, speeding straight down 85 from the south end of Elmira is already 15 minutes. No LRT is going to come close to being faster than walking from almost all student housing.

S Field Dr. in Elmira, at the tracks, to UW station is about 13km along the tracks, or 10 minutes at 80km/h.

So with the right LRT service, I think that compares pretty favourably to a lot of existing student commutes.

That being said, not every building could be literally on the station, and realistically if we ever get LRT to Elmira it would probably poke along at 70km/h, and depending on how many stops there are the real speed would be way belong my 80km/h, and so on, but to just cede all interurban transport to road-based vehicles is in my opinion unambitious, especially in the medium to long term.

"all interurban transport to road-based vehicles"...yeah, I'm not doing that at all obviously there should be a train to Toronto, in fact, we already have an (admittedly poor and underinvested in) train doing that already.

The problem is not the mode, but our development patterns. Students aren't going to live in Elmira without a car not just because they can't get to campus, but because they cannot get to a hundred other services, and because few communities are even built walkable. Just building a train isn't going to change any of that.

I'm all for developing transit focused walkable communities. I'd love to see the planned Breslau station be surrounded by a dense complete urban community rather than a sea of parking. But given that we won't even do that in a greenfield situation, we are not going to change our development patterns sufficiently in a situation faced by NIMBYs to justify it.

I just see other options as more realistic.

[jamincan]

A regional LRT service between New Hamburg and Guelph would be an interesting prospect. In particular, the villages around KW often have nice cores that are hard to replicate. It would be nice if we could build greater intensity around those centres without the commuting pattern defaulting to the car.

Guelph to KW has some merit because of the size and density of each city, but given we have an existing rail line, it probably makes sense to utilize that. But New Hamburg and Baden are small and extremely sprawling (I know, I lived there) you aren't going to get many people on transit.

It's a chicken and egg situation. I'm not saying investing in something like that is necessarily the best use of resources, but when all we have servicing those places is a highway, we shouldn't be surprised that everyone drives and the built form is conducive to it. My main point is that New Hamburg/Baden isn't really any worse than most suburban parts of KW, but it has the added benefit of having traditional town centres that could provide the bones for more pedestrian/transit-centred built forms.