GO Transit

[Bob_McBob]

I'm also not buying the whole "Presto didn't respond to an RFP and we have unique customer needs" line anymore. The RFP thing is just ridiculous and could presumably have been resolved with some basic communication. The "unique customer needs" they list are "the ability to accept payment on MobilityPLUS vehicles, the ability to integrate a U-Pass program and the ability to issue machine readable paper tickets from fare vending machines". These things are not issues in other public transit systems that use Presto, so what makes Waterloo a special snowflake?

[tomh009]

Just one in a long line of bad decisions our government (and staff) has made.

My recollection is that Presto wasn't willing to be flexible to make the system work (here) the way the region wanted it to work.

[danbrotherston]

Just one in a long line of bad decisions our government (and staff) has made.

My recollection is that Presto wasn't willing to be flexible to make the system work (here) the way the region wanted it to work.

Or to put it another way, the region wasn't willing to be flexible and make our system work the same as transit systems in nearly identical neighbouring cities.

This idea that "presto" is the actor who was obstinate here is a narrative, nothing more.

[KevinL]

I think the solution we are slowly moving towards is open payment - that you can use a smart card, a credit/debit card, a smartphone, or what have you - and that payment option works on any system. Then it's just a matter of linking up systems for combining fares.

I don't know how the finer details work, but that's where international systems like Oyster are headed.

[goggolor]

My understanding is you just show your Presto card and they let you board.  For multi-bus trips to get to the station, I'm assuming they'd give you a transfer?

My cynical view on this is that I could just board any bus with my Presto card and get free transit anywhere in the region. I'm hoping they have safeguards to keep people from doing this, but it's hard when you're not on a route that directly connects to the GO station.

I thought it was that you had to tap your linked EasyGO card on the Presto terminal after tapping your Presto card (GO is tap on and off, variable fares), and then you needed to tap on to a GRT bus or ION. I don;t remember there being a local discount when transferring to GO, only from.

The GRT site says: "Starting March 14, you can connect to your GO train trips for free. GO Transit is eliminating the 50¢ Connect-to-GO fare so you can travel to and from the Kitchener Train Station for free on GRT. Just show the operator your Presto card or valid GO train ticket when you board."

[Acitta]

I thought it was that you had to tap your linked EasyGO card on the Presto terminal after tapping your Presto card (GO is tap on and off, variable fares), and then you needed to tap on to a GRT bus or ION. I don;t remember there being a local discount when transferring to GO, only from.

The GRT site says: "Starting March 14, you can connect to your GO train trips for free. GO Transit is eliminating the 50¢ Connect-to-GO fare so you can travel to and from the Kitchener Train Station for free on GRT. Just show the operator your Presto card or valid GO train ticket when you board."

So I guess that I don't qualify if I get on the GO bus at Weber and Queen rather than the train station.

[Bytor]

The features we requested and the RFP process is not some commandments handed down from on high.  *WE CHOSE* them...

And we chose them KNOWING that Presto wouldn't qualify if we did.

No. The fare products and classes we had were already in use, and it's not unreasonable to to say the system must suit us, not that we suit the system.

In any case, Presto qualifying is irrelevant as Prest doesn.t do RFPs. But, I know, you've already made up your mind on this, facts be damned.

Here is an article that lists the reasons why Presto was not chosen.

[ac3r]

"I was concerned that we would be able to go to a request-for-proposals process and not be handcuffed by the Metrolinx/Province of Ontario on this one."

Well that's rich. Instead, they decided to get handcuffed to a consortium of private corporations.

I have to agree with danbrotherston with this. There are benefits to using Presto...that's why there are 11 other transit systems that use it. EasyGO works for what it is, but using Presto would have made much more seamless transport options for people all over Southern Ontario. There'd be great convenience in being able to tap a Presto card to get onto the ION, then transfer to a GO train, then be able to go to Mississauga and use it on MiWay, then the TTC network, then Oakville, Brampton, Burlington, Hamilton, York Region and Durham Transit...then take the UPE train to Pearson to fly to Ottawa and then use the same card on their LRT and bus system.

[danbrotherston]

The features we requested and the RFP process is not some commandments handed down from on high.  *WE CHOSE* them...

And we chose them KNOWING that Presto wouldn't qualify if we did.

No. The fare products and classes we had  were already in use, and it's not unreasonable to to say the system must suit us, not that we suit the system.

In any case, Presto qualifying is irrelevant as Prest doesn.t do RFPs. But, I know, you've already made up your mind on this, facts be damned.

Here is an article that lists the reasons why Presto was not chosen.

What facts?

Are you suggesting that there are physical laws preventing us from using Presto? Or Federal or Provincial laws?

In fact, the article you link supports me here--council made a decision. I believe that it was the wrong decision, but that isn't what I'm arguing here. All I am saying is that it was a CHOICE that we didn't go with Presto and saying it wasn't a choice because Presto didn't participate in the RFP is BS.

[bravado]

I think that the people of Waterloo Region would have been better off if we picked Presto, but either through weird demands from Council or silo'd competitive bureaucrats we're all worse off with what they picked. It's clear they don't actually care about what helps the most people, only whatever helps their internal plan.

[jamincan]

In retrospect, using Presto seems obviously better, but the context at the time was quite different. Presto was still *very* rough around the edges and the benefits of using it, especially outside of the GTA, were not as immediately obvious at that time. In general, if council is not going to use a competitive bidding process, there usually has to be pretty compelling reasons to do it, and with all the trade-offs that it would have entailed, it's not clear to me that selecting Presto outside of a RFP process would have been the right decision. Maybe they would have found it was the best within a competitive process, but thanks to Presto, that wasn't an option.

I would also be very leery of getting into a business relationship with a company that demonstrates an unwillingness to work with me as a client. Take it or leave it is okay if you're selling chocolate bars and cereal. It's a giant red flag for something like this.

Edit: I do wonder, though, if it would make sense for the region to reconsider the fare card issue.

[danbrotherston]

In retrospect, using Presto seems obviously better, but the context at the time was quite different. Presto was still *very* rough around the edges and the benefits of using it, especially outside of the GTA, were not as immediately obvious at that time. In general, if council is not going to use a competitive bidding process, there usually has to be pretty compelling reasons to do it, and with all the trade-offs that it would have entailed, it's not clear to me that selecting Presto outside of a RFP process would have been the right decision. Maybe they would have found it was the best within a competitive process, but thanks to Presto, that wasn't an option.

I would also be very leery of getting into a business relationship with a company that demonstrates an unwillingness to work with me as a client. Take it or leave it is okay if you're selling chocolate bars and cereal. It's a giant red flag for something like this.

Edit: I do wonder, though, if it would make sense for the region to reconsider the fare card issue.

I mean, the whole point of government is to plan for the future, we KNEW that tighter integration with the GTA was something we were striving for, it was easily foreseeable that fare card unity would be a long term benefit.

I do agree that Presto had more issue then, but it is utterly naive to think that our little town would be able to launch a fare card without issues. To me, the most legitimate argument against presto is not trusting the province.

In any case, it's a moot point now, we'll just have to wait 30 years for an integrated fare card. For me, I literally have nine fare cards in my travel bag now....three family members times GRT, Presto, and London. Where we will be by the end of the month, I expect to have 3 fare cards for the entire country including bike rentals.

[plam]

I mean, the whole point of government is to plan for the future, we KNEW that tighter integration with the GTA was something we were striving for, it was easily foreseeable that fare card unity would be a long term benefit.

I do agree that Presto had more issue then, but it is utterly naive to think that our little town would be able to launch a fare card without issues. To me, the most legitimate argument against presto is not trusting the province.

In any case, it's a moot point now, we'll just have to wait 30 years for an integrated fare card. For me, I literally have nine fare cards in my travel bag now....three family members times GRT, Presto, and London. Where we will be by the end of the month, I expect to have 3 fare cards for the entire country including bike rentals.

People have had mentioned a lot of operational issues with Presto. I think the financial issue is nontrivial as well: I remember hearing that it costs quite a bit to use.

NZ is a much smaller country and also has 4 fare cards for different cities, so there's that.

[KevinL]

I dream, as I often do, of the Dutch ideal: a single fare card for every transit operator, from the national intercity carrier to bikeshare in a small town.

[tomh009]

Here is an article that lists the reasons why Presto was not chosen.

Thanks. So, one factor was the cost: Presto won't participate in an RFP, and would not provide operating or capital cost estimates, according to the article. That does make it difficult to determine whether Presto's cost is competitive or not.

And for the flexibility:

Presto would require the region to agree to certain terms universal to every transit system using it, including passenger classifications and future global fare policies, the region said. Any changes to the standardized system would require every service using Presto - about 12 - to agree.

As an example for this, the region would have needed to implement exactly the same affordable transit pass as the other Presto members, rather than being able to tailor it for our region (for example, our ATP provides discounted single fares, Presto does not).

Given the lack of flexibility and the lack of clarity about costs, I suspect that I would have chosen against Presto as well had I been making the decision. Metrolinx has chosen to provide a standardized service, as is their right, but that does mean it may not fit the requirements as well for any given region.