ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit

[Bob_McBob]

[ijmorlan]

Wow. I do have to point out that to my knowledge the poster of the video is incorrect in that Ontario is not a “timed stop” jurisdiction — all you have to do is stop, then proceed when it is safe and everybody who has right of way is out of the way. Also when there is truly nobody around (not other traffic, not pedestrians, nobody) I really don’t see any reason why a full stop is any better than almost stopping. But some parts of the video almost look like those photos of traffic in India where everybody just edges forward until the other traffic yields.

The LRT problems, however, clearly stem from a pervasive ignoring of signals of all types.

[CuilTard]

Don't forget that for a train to be rounding this King/Victoria corner, it had to just stop at the southbound Central station. So to be unaware of a train you would have to walk past Central without seeing it, hearing it stop, open the doors and close them and whatever other assorted chimes it makes.

 
A pedestrian could have been walking along Victoria when they come to the intersection. I agree with the rest of your point, but they don't have to have walked by the station.

Good point. Thank you. I was basing my scenario on the reddit thread that (I assume) spawned this discussion in which the gentleman/woman was walking south.

[danbrotherston]

 
A pedestrian could have been walking along Victoria when they come to the intersection. I agree with the rest of your point, but they don't have to have walked by the station.

Good point. Thank you. I was basing my scenario on the reddit thread that (I assume) spawned this discussion in which the gentleman/woman was walking south.

It's also the case that the operator will definitely see (and is looking for) pedestrians at this point, and has a gong, and a horn.

I really don't feel this is actually terribly dangerous, but I do find it ironic and symbolic of our broken transportation engineering field.

Edit: Upon reading the reddit thread, it's also clear that our right of way rules are entirely ambiguous and broken. I liked the Netherlands, where that type of thing has careful attention paid. Not only are there unambiguous pavement markings 100% of the time, the design of the roadway itself shows who has right of way. There are numerous places in our city where you have a sidewalk continue uninterrupted, yet there is a walk sign that in theory must be obeyed. Whoever built those (and there is a brand new one with the LRT) should lose their engineering degree....

Edit 2: Rules are an interesting question, the rules generally have a purpose, and if that purpose is being achieved, that is what is important, in my opinion. However, very often, there are people in our society who believe they know better than the rules, and often don't. Thus, they contradict the goal, while believing themselves to be in the right. The easy solution is to obey the rules all the time, and usually it's the right outcome (although there are plenty of rules which actually contradict their goal, both directly, and as a result of human factors). Drivers who crawl through a stop sign only bug me when they complain about cyclists doing the same thing. Drivers who intentionally endanger pedestrians for their own convenience are by far the bigger problem, just today a driver nearly ran my partner over while crossing in a marked crosswalk, on a green, there was no reason not to see the ped, the driver simply chose to force her to jump out of the way. This probably happens at least hourly at every busy intersection in the city, and nobody cares one iota. Yet we read continual blame for peds when they are hit. Okay, this took a bit of a tangent....sorry.

[ijmorlan]

Page 1000!

I had been wondering whether it would arrive before Ion opened. Only missed it by a couple of weeks.

[trainspotter139]

ATP is not required for full speed for the time being.

Then why don’t they run at full speed? I don’t believe they are exceeding 50km/h on the ATP sections even though speeds up to 70km/h are posted in many areas.

The vehicles themselves aren't currently allowing them to travel at full speeds due to an unrelated issue. They don't need to run at full speeds though to comply with the travel time requirements.

[taylortbb]

Then why don’t they run at full speed? I don’t believe they are exceeding 50km/h on the ATP sections even though speeds up to 70km/h are posted in many areas.

The vehicles themselves aren't currently allowing them to travel at full speeds due to an unrelated issue. They don't need to run at full speeds though to comply with the travel time requirements.

Can you share details of the unrelated issue? Very curious.

[timc]

Yep. That is pretty standard stop-sign behaviour around here too. When you use stop signs for traffic calming, people will start to ignore them and treat them as yields.

[MidTowner]

It's true that stop signs make for poor traffic calming. Hereabouts, they are not generally advised by planners expressly for traffic calming (since motorists ignore them, and tend to accelerate hard after passing them), but it's true that they have been in the past.

There is very little enforcement. Maybe it's just not cost effective to enforce this kind of traffic violation when the only way to do it is to use police officers who generally make six figure salaries.

What's the solution then? I'd agree that we should get rid of a lot of stop signs and instead reduce vehicle speeds (by using infrastructure that makes speeding a real challenge). There would still be call for stop signs in some places- would it really be the case that, with relatively fewer of them, people would start taking them seriously?

[jamincan]

Lower neighbourhood speed limits to a hard 30kph, but replace stop signs with yields? That's something I might get behind.

[danbrotherston]

[MidTowner]

I have yet to have proof of payment demanded of me, though I have seen the inspectors aboard; I take Ion twice daily, sometimes a third time. But my first ride is at 6:30.

This morning at GRH, the card reader presented an error message the first two times I tapped. Only on the third try did it take. But it did work for me, eventually. I wonder how many riders might have (quite reasonably) just given up.

Departure times are still not being displayed, it seems.

[tomh009]

What's the solution then? I'd agree that we should get rid of a lot of stop signs and instead reduce vehicle speeds (by using infrastructure that makes speeding a real challenge). There would still be call for stop signs in some places- would it really be the case that, with relatively fewer of them, people would start taking them seriously?

Effectively most people are treating the stop signs as yield signs already.

In Europe, where yield signs are far more common, the less-frequent stop signs do get more respect.

[plam]

I have yet to have proof of payment demanded of me, though I have seen the inspectors aboard; I take Ion twice daily, sometimes a third time. But my first ride is at 6:30.

This morning at GRH, the card reader presented an error message the first two times I tapped. Only on the third try did it take. But it did work for me, eventually. I wonder how many riders might have (quite reasonably) just given up.

Departure times are still not being displayed, it seems.

The Ticket Vending Machines continue to eat bills. This easyGo system seems like a complete fiasco. My spouse put in a $20 bill yesterday after we had forgotten to set up autoload on her card and the machine just ate it. We've called in to GRT and I think that they are going to mail us cheques maybe?

[jeffster]

Wow. I do have to point out that to my knowledge the poster of the video is incorrect in that Ontario is not a “timed stop” jurisdiction — all you have to do is stop, then proceed when it is safe and everybody who has right of way is out of the way. Also when there is truly nobody around (not other traffic, not pedestrians, nobody) I really don’t see any reason why a full stop is any better than almost stopping. But some parts of the video almost look like those photos of traffic in India where everybody just edges forward until the other traffic yields.

The LRT problems, however, clearly stem from a pervasive ignoring of signals of all types.

But therein lies the problem. It's the attitude that it doesn't matter if anyone isn't around. So we start yielding at stop signs rather than stop, at a "STOP" sign. It then leads to drivers running reds when 'no one is around', and pulling other illegal maneuvers, such as what we're seeing with the LRT. Left on no-left turn red lights (example is Ottawa St S eastbound at Westmount northbound), going right on no-right turn red lights, u-turning at no u-turns. Ignoring stop signs and red lights altogether. What happens then is that people are so used to no stopping at stop signs that it becomes second nature for them disobey traffic signs. Then it goes to the no-turn red lights, no u-turns, red lights, etc. Poor driving habits is another way to put it. STOP signs are never, ever, YIELD signs, so we shouldn't ever treat like a YIELD sign.

I do recall an incident where a motorist didn't stop at a stop sign because 'no was around' and was t-boned by someone that had the right away -- but apparently came out of 'no where'. Magically, of course. The real issue was the driver in the wrong getting used to the idea of not stopping, just yields, or even timing stop signs (so you see traffic at a two-way stop, but calculate you have enough time to carry-on as if you had no stop sign safely).

I agree, though, that stop signs are not timed events. You come to a complete stop then proceed to do so if safe.