Region of Waterloo International Airport - YKF

[plam]

Yeah, AC does consider it a leg of their flight, but the benefits pretty much end there. There is no through connection of baggage, no through connection of security, no through connection of ticketing. Nothing.

There is zero reason that the bus should go to the airport. Yes, YKF is more convenient than Pearson, but it is less convenient than virtually every other location within the region of Waterloo. It's inaccessible by further transit, it's relatively expensive to park at, it's relatively remote and not that well connected to the road network. It's on the wrong side of the river.

Less convenient: I dunno, man, I get mad every time I have to go to the Boardwalk, but maybe that's for other reasons. The taxi to YKF cost me $30 last time, which is a lot less than the taxi to YYZ. And, as SammyOES points out, it's a much smaller ask to get a ride to YKF than to YYZ. 



The revealed preference is that I will, in fact, take the YKF bus when I'm not on a tight schedule. The protection from misconnects is actually reasonably important in a world where the 401 may occasionally and randomly be broken. 

I don't care about baggage and security. Indeed, I know for a fact that you can be extremely late with baggage at YKF and they will frown at you but print out your baggage tags anyway. Then, because I fly often and I have NEXUS, I don't really have to wait for baggage and security at YYZ. I don't know what you mean by through connection of ticketing. You can definitely get boarding passes at YKF, though you can also just have them on your phone.

There would also need to be a location in the city which AC would need to rent. Seems more expensive than an airport, which they very much know how to rent, and comes handy with a baggage scale and computers talking to the right networks.

[SammyOES]

There’s also just things like marketing. A “luxury motor coach” from the airport treated as a flight markets better than heading to the bus terminal down town. (I’m not saying the product actually is better coming from the airport vs a bus station, but I would bet heavily it is treated that way in aggregate by AC customers).

There are logistics things like a bus from the airport east of the city has less traffic issues from the city and has lots of routes around anything that does develop.

There are likely a set of computer system issues resolved by treating the departure point as an airport rather than creating a “fake” airport somewhere else.

That’s just off the top of my head. I guarantee there are dozens of other important factors I don’t know about because I’m not part of the team working on this.

[danbrotherston]

There’s also just things like marketing.  A “luxury motor coach” from the airport treated as a flight  markets better than heading to the bus terminal down town. (I’m not saying the product actually is better coming from the airport vs a bus station, but I would bet heavily it is treated that way in aggregate by AC customers).

There are logistics things like a bus from the airport east of the city has less traffic issues from the city and has lots of routes around anything that does develop.

There are likely a set of computer system issues resolved by treating the departure point as an airport rather than creating a “fake” airport somewhere else. 

That’s just off the top of my head.  I guarantee there are dozens of other important factors I don’t know about because I’m not part of the team working on this.

I do not think "we'd have to do data entry in a computer for our system" is at all relevant. There are already flights that include train stations as their destination, INCLUDING in Canada, the Ottawa -> Montreal service operates as a code share with AC and also departs from the Ottawa train station.

You assume that I am not aware of how the world works, that a team (really, it's not a team's sole focus) doesn't think about their decisions. I'm not a child, I'm very familiar with how the world works. I'm not accusing anyone of malice or even incompetence in this case. I don't know what justifications they used for this choice.  What I am saying is that they have made the wrong decision here.

The additional cost to moving to a better location is much smaller than the benefit of doing so. And return to the Ottawa example. I am certain the logistics of renting space at the Ottawa train station is at least as difficult as KW. And the Ottawa airport is better connected to the city than KW (Or Kingston for that matter, where the bus to the airport from Toronto is literally the ONLY scheduled commercial "flight", how insane is that!).

The point is, there is no technical reason PREVENTING this. Yes, there are no doubt logistical challenges making it more complicated. I won't speculate on why they make this decision, only that I believe it is the wrong decision. You obviously believe otherwise, but you have no more reason to believe that then I do.

I know I need to go back to ignoring this stuff, but maybe, just maybe, the people running the business and understand all the costs and benefits of their market are making the right decision for their business for reasons that you don’t understand.

As you say, they could easily run buses to other locations. And yet they are not. It’s possible it’s a bunch of morons running the show who can’t figure out basic business decisions. Or maybe you’re like the blind men and the elephant and you just don’t have visibility into a bunch of operational and business considerations.

This is a shitty unproductive take here. If you feel my response is not worth engaging with, then don't. If you do engage, then clearly you feel it is worth engaging with. Don't start by telling me I'm not worth you're time.

Now, I am not accusing anyone of being a moron that's a straw man argument (I do save that for when I understand more about the system, for example, with road and traffic design).

Your only justification for believing different from me seems to be "I trust the people making the decisions"...I don't know about you, but nothing in my life has given me the confidence that decision makers at large companies reliably make good decisions, or that they're immune to biases (like for example people running an airline, might not fully appreciate the value of not arriving at an airport). In fact, I frequently see (and saw in my own experiences) bad decisions being made by decision makers all. the. time.

[danbrotherston]

Yeah, AC does consider it a leg of their flight, but the benefits pretty much end there. There is no through connection of baggage, no through connection of security, no through connection of ticketing. Nothing.

There is zero reason that the bus should go to the airport. Yes, YKF is more convenient than Pearson, but it is less convenient than virtually every other location within the region of Waterloo. It's inaccessible by further transit, it's relatively expensive to park at, it's relatively remote and not that well connected to the road network. It's on the wrong side of the river.

Less convenient: I dunno, man, I get mad every time I have to go to the Boardwalk, but maybe that's for other reasons. The taxi to YKF cost me $30 last time, which is a lot less than the taxi to YYZ. And, as SammyOES points out, it's a much smaller ask to get a ride to YKF than to YYZ. 

The revealed preference is that I will, in fact, take the YKF bus when I'm not on a tight schedule. The protection from misconnects is actually reasonably important in a world where the 401 may occasionally and randomly be broken. 

I don't care about baggage and security. Indeed, I know for a fact that you can be extremely late with baggage at YKF and they will frown at you but print out your baggage tags anyway. Then, because I fly often and I have NEXUS, I don't really have to wait for baggage and security at YYZ. I don't know what you mean by through connection of ticketing. You can definitely get boarding passes at YKF, though you can also just have them on your phone.

There would also need to be a location in the city which AC would need to rent. Seems more expensive than an airport, which they very much know how to rent, and comes handy with a baggage scale and computers talking to the right networks.

There were no taxis at YKF when we arrived last time (possibly that was not typical, I don't know). I'd also have to call a taxi from the boardwalk, except no I wouldn't, because there are buses.

But leaving aside buses and taxis, the boardwalk is simpler closer to most places in the city than YKF even for driving and getting picked up or booking a taxi.

So yeah, the boardwalk wouldn't be my favourite place to get dropped, but it would still be better than the airport.

I am not arguing that there is not value provided by the service. Yes, not risking a missed connection is the biggest one by far. I'm always paranoid about missing my flights. But that isn't really that big a deal, the connections at least with my flights were not tight, we waited more than 2 hours even after spending more than an hour to pickup our baggage.

But I do care about baggage and I don't have NEXUS. This is what I said before. If they managed the connection through YKF, check my bags there, check me through security there, then drop me past security at YYZ and handle my bags for me, then there would be a lot of value to going to YKF. But they don't. They don't leverage any of the equipment at YYZ other than the curb outside the terminal building (and apparently the baggage tag printer which they didn't use when I was there).

As for boarding passes, that's not relevant at all. I get my boarding pass on my phone at my house the day before my flight.

[plam]

I do not think "we'd have to do data entry in a computer for our system" is at all relevant. There are already flights that include train stations as their destination, INCLUDING in Canada, the Ottawa -> Montreal service operates as a code share with AC and also departs from the Ottawa train station.

Air France/KLM not Air Canada. From what I can read, there are no boarding passes for the Ottawa bus and I suspect they don't tag your bags, so it is logistically different. It seems like they don't have all the airport stuff at XDS, the Ottawa train station. Could they? Sure, for the right amount of money. Am I going to second guess this particular decision? Nah.

There were no taxis at YKF when we arrived last time (possibly that was not typical, I don't know). I'd also have to call a taxi from the boardwalk, except no I wouldn't, because there are buses.

But leaving aside buses and taxis, the boardwalk is simpler closer to most places in the city than YKF even for driving and getting picked up or booking a taxi.

Boardwalk is 8km from the Kitchener Market, while YKF is 11km from the Kitchener Market.

I have taken public transit from YKF but that's a weird thing to do. I wouldn't expect most people to be able to do this. (GRT Flex, if you're trying to do that). It has weird hours.

I am not arguing that there is not value provided by the service. Yes, not risking a missed connection is the biggest one by far. I'm always paranoid about missing my flights. But that isn't really that big a deal, the connections at least with my flights were not tight, we waited more than 2 hours even after spending more than an hour to pickup our baggage.

But I do care about baggage and I don't have NEXUS. This is what I said before. If they managed the connection through YKF, check my bags there, check me through security there, then drop me past security at YYZ and handle my bags for me, then there would be a lot of value to going to YKF. But they don't. They don't leverage any of the equipment at YYZ other than the curb outside the terminal building (and apparently the baggage tag printer which they didn't use when I was there).

As for boarding passes, that's not relevant at all. I get my boarding pass on my phone at my house the day before my flight.

Basically we have different priorities here. The YKF bus serves my needs reasonably well from YKF rather than, well, the bus station that doesn't exist anymore.

The YKF-YYZ-XXX connection is by definition not going to be tight, they respect a minimum connection time. But the value is that AC is on the hook to rebook you.

[SammyOES]

I don't know what justifications they used for this choice.  What I am saying is that they have made the wrong decision here.

And this is what’s wrong with most of these online arguments and is exactly my point.

Your first sentence means you should have zero confidence in your second sentence.

[danbrotherston]

I do not think "we'd have to do data entry in a computer for our system" is at all relevant. There are already flights that include train stations as their destination, INCLUDING in Canada, the Ottawa -> Montreal service operates as a code share with AC and also departs from the Ottawa train station.

Air France/KLM not Air Canada. From what I can read, there are no boarding passes for the Ottawa bus and I suspect they don't tag your bags, so it is logistically different. It seems like they don't have all the airport stuff at XDS, the Ottawa train station. Could they? Sure, for the right amount of money. Am I going to second guess this particular decision? Nah.

There were no taxis at YKF when we arrived last time (possibly that was not typical, I don't know). I'd also have to call a taxi from the boardwalk, except no I wouldn't, because there are buses.

But leaving aside buses and taxis, the boardwalk is simpler closer to most places in the city than YKF even for driving and getting picked up or booking a taxi.

Boardwalk is 8km from the Kitchener Market, while YKF is 11km from the Kitchener Market.

I have taken public transit from YKF but that's a weird thing to do. I wouldn't expect most people to be able to do this. (GRT Flex, if you're trying to do that). It has weird hours.

I am not arguing that there is not value provided by the service. Yes, not risking a missed connection is the biggest one by far. I'm always paranoid about missing my flights. But that isn't really that big a deal, the connections at least with my flights were not tight, we waited more than 2 hours even after spending more than an hour to pickup our baggage.

But I do care about baggage and I don't have NEXUS. This is what I said before. If they managed the connection through YKF, check my bags there, check me through security there, then drop me past security at YYZ and handle my bags for me, then there would be a lot of value to going to YKF. But they don't. They don't leverage any of the equipment at YYZ other than the curb outside the terminal building (and apparently the baggage tag printer which they didn't use when I was there).

As for boarding passes, that's not relevant at all. I get my boarding pass on my phone at my house the day before my flight.

Basically we have different priorities here. The YKF bus serves my needs reasonably well from YKF rather than, well, the bus station that doesn't exist anymore.

The YKF-YYZ-XXX connection is by definition not going to be tight, they respect a minimum connection time. But the value is that AC is on the hook to rebook you.

My bad, KLM then. I think that kinda reinforces the point. There's no regulatory limitation, no technical limitation, nothing. It's a choice that AC is making.

On boarding passes, I'm not sure how you get on the bus, but boarding passes are all electronic now, you get them on your phone before you leave the house no?

Bag tags are different, they may not tag your bags, but given that you still have to DROP your bags (in the same place you print the bag tags), to me, this doesn't make any difference (and again, they didn't do this when I went through YKF either).




As for the Boardwalk, it's not about distance (although you point out it is closer) it's about accessibility. Being on the other side of the river makes it more remote than the 40% longer distance would suggest.



I don't think it's that we have different priorities, but I am travelling with a family which makes a taxi from YYZ relatively more affordable. I might consider the service if I was alone, but it would be a no brainer if it went to DTK family or no, it would be an easy choice.


Like I said, I'm not saying that it doesn't provide _some_ value, but it could provide far far more either being at YKF and using the services there to avoid a lot of the queues at YYZ OR BY servicing a more relevant destination like DTK. That it does neither, man, it was a frustrating experience.

[the_conestoga_guy]

I also note that the plan inludes a potential Ottawa St Ion line, presumably terminating at the airport.  I've lost track, where would an Ottawa St line fit on any big dreams for a bigger LRT system?

An LRT along Ottawa from YKF to Sunrise Centre was conceptualized in ROPA 6, obviously ROPA 6 is no longer a governing document thanks to the Province, however the Cities are still incorporating ROPA 6 into their updated Official Plans. Given this the City of Kitchener is applying the same SGA zones to Ottawa St as they have already done in the PMTSAs through Growing Together. There's various other policies that are being added to Ottawa St because of ROPA 6 that will allow it to develop over time into a corridor that can have LRT, say good bye to drive-thrus and similar car oriented infrastructure, existing buildings will of course be grandfathered in however anything new must abide by the new rules once they are approved.

For everyone who wants Victoria it won't happen, there's other public policy documents including Provincial ones (this isn't Highway 7 related either) which effectively inhibits an LRT type development along Victoria for a long time.

Is the policy inhibiting transit growth along Victoria related to the "Auto Centric Commercial" introduced in the latest planning documents? I don't necessarily have anything against it, but I don't love them abutting this car-centred zoning directly against residential in the stretch West of the highway...

To tie this back to the airport in this threat, I always though that Victoria would be a considerably better option for promoting growth and carrying higher-order transit than Ottawa, as it provides a better route to the airport. It's more meaningful for a route to run through both the downtown transit hub and past the new Bresleau GO station than Ottawa, which passes through neither plus necessitates a new Grand River crossing. Plus, any new Ottawa route will require much more tunnelling/elevated sections to navigate between Strasburg and Courtland compared to what would be required for a Victoria/Highland route...

I genuinely wonder what arguments have been taking place within the City/Region that are promoting the Ottawa route.

[MidTowner]

An LRT along Ottawa from YKF to Sunrise Centre was conceptualized in ROPA 6, obviously ROPA 6 is no longer a governing document thanks to the Province, however the Cities are still incorporating ROPA 6 into their updated Official Plans. Given this the City of Kitchener is applying the same SGA zones to Ottawa St as they have already done in the PMTSAs through Growing Together. There's various other policies that are being added to Ottawa St because of ROPA 6 that will allow it to develop over time into a corridor that can have LRT, say good bye to drive-thrus and similar car oriented infrastructure, existing buildings will of course be grandfathered in however anything new must abide by the new rules once they are approved.

For everyone who wants Victoria it won't happen, there's other public policy documents including Provincial ones (this isn't Highway 7 related either) which effectively inhibits an LRT type development along Victoria for a long time.

Is the policy inhibiting transit growth along Victoria related to the "Auto Centric Commercial" introduced in the latest planning documents? I don't necessarily have anything against it, but I don't love them abutting this car-centred zoning directly against residential in the stretch West of the highway...

To tie this back to the airport in this threat, I always though that Victoria would be a considerably better option for promoting growth and carrying higher-order transit than Ottawa, as it provides a better route to the airport. It's more meaningful for a route to run through both the downtown transit hub and past the new Bresleau GO station than Ottawa, which passes through neither plus necessitates a new Grand River crossing. Plus, any new Ottawa route will require much more tunnelling/elevated sections to navigate between Strasburg and Courtland compared to what would be required for a Victoria/Highland route...

I genuinely wonder what arguments have been taking place within the City/Region that are promoting the Ottawa route.

That "Auto Centric Commercial" area stretching all the way from Lancaster to Shirley that's identified in the Draft 2051 Official Plan is part of it, but there have been other documents that identify future uses that mean Victoria North will continue to be a stroad. I do not like it and do not understand it- building up a densified corridor along Victoria both South and North through the downtown makes sense to me. King and Victoria will be a more and more important place as you say; Ottawa Street has nothing comparable.

That same draft Official Plan identified Ottawa and River as one of only four "Urban Centres" outside of Downtown Kitchener. I guess it's true that the parcel of land the mall is on is a unique opportunity.

[SammyOES]

I don’t really mind the Lackner to Shirley stretch being car centric and industrial. That’s what already exists and it’s a good a spot as any to put that stuff.

But from the highway to Lackner should definitely be densified and moved towards residential. New highway 7 should remove a chunk of the through traffic. Meaning you’ve got 5+ lanes to work with for cars, transit and paths. And you’ve got a simple straight shot towards a main transit area making connections to the rest of the city very easy.

I don’t actually see the need for anything other than buses east of Lackner anyway. Trying to connect the airport seems like way too far for the value. And add in that the proposed GO station is a bit off both Highway 7 and an Ottawa street extension just makes everything awkward. If we get to like 50+ flights a day maybe we can look at a dedicated link from the GO station to the airport. But even then it feels like overkill.

[danbrotherston]

I'm sorry. It's 2026 and we have a zone in our city "auto centric commercial"....

We're so fucking done.

I do agree with SammyOES connecting to the airport is far. Not that it matters if we're designing, ON PURPOSE, car dependency into the corridor.