Region of Waterloo International Airport - YKF

[creative]

Is the service being well used?

When I took it the bus was maybe 1/3 full.

Was this YYZ to YKF? How did you get from the airport to your next destination?

[taylortbb]

Baggage scales, check in desks, etc all exist at YKF. It sounds like it's just like a connection where you have to retrieve and recheck your luggage.

All of those things exist but they’re not being used. When you arrive at Pearson you must redo everything. 

If you'd read my message above (which you quoted in your reply!) you'd know those things *are* being used. They weigh and measure your bag at the YKF check-in desk, and then they tag it. They also use the document scanners at the YKF check-in desks to do document verification.

You actually don't have to re-do everything at YYZ. Your bag is already tagged, your passport is already verified, etc. If your destination is international they won't let you on the bus without the passport verification (including checking required visas).

What they don't do at YKF is security.

My only real complaint about the service is the YYZ -> YKF direction. I wish the bus left from somewhere in the D gates at YYZ. That way one could wait for the bus airside, including in the lounge.

[danbrotherston]

When I took it the bus was maybe 1/3 full.

Was this YYZ to YKF? How did you get from the airport to your next destination?

This was YYZ to YKF. A friend was nice enough to pick us up from the airport and take us into the city (we were visiting them anyway). I could also have taken a taxi but with a little one, I'd rather not drive such a distance with no car seat (even though it is legal I believe).

[danbrotherston]

All of those things exist but they’re not being used. When you arrive at Pearson you must redo everything. 

If you'd read my message above (which you quoted in your reply!) you'd know those things *are* being used. They weigh and measure your bag at the YKF check-in desk, and then they tag it. They also use the document scanners at the YKF check-in desks to do document verification.

You actually don't have to re-do everything at YYZ. Your bag is already tagged, your passport is already verified, etc. If your destination is international they won't let you on the bus without the passport verification (including checking required visas).

What they don't do at YKF is security.

My only real complaint about the service is the YYZ -> YKF direction. I wish the bus left from somewhere in the D gates at YYZ. That way one could wait for the bus airside, including in the lounge.

I read your message just fine, but these things do not require YKF. When you arrive at YYZ, you put your bag on the automated scanner yes? It is weighing/processing your bag there. I do the same thing when I arrive at YYZ without going through YKF first. My passport is also already checked because I do online check-in.

None of these things actually require YKF. It's exactly the same process at YYZ when I arrive. Even if they wanted to provide checkin as a service, it still doesn't require YKF, all it requires is a laptop. Even PRINTING the bag tag, which is something you cannot do online, only takes about 20 seconds at Pearson. But even that, doesn't actually require YKF, it's simply a specialized printer that is needed.

In fact, if you do online check-in, what you describe arey EXTRA checks that aren't needed otherwise, if I took a GO bus, it would depart from downtown Kitchener AND I wouldn't need to have my passport checked a second time.

I'm confused about your complaint though? What do you mean by "airside", you mean past security? This is precisely my complaint. Without this, there is literally no service provided by going to YKF, if the bus arrived/departed inside the security zone, it would be valuable. You could do security, bag checking, etc. at YKF and then your arrival at YYZ would be a simple connection.

[plam]

If you'd read my message above (which you quoted in your reply!) you'd know those things *are* being used. They weigh and measure your bag at the YKF check-in desk, and then they tag it. They also use the document scanners at the YKF check-in desks to do document verification.

You actually don't have to re-do everything at YYZ. Your bag is already tagged, your passport is already verified, etc. If your destination is international they won't let you on the bus without the passport verification (including checking required visas).

What they don't do at YKF is security.

My only real complaint about the service is the YYZ -> YKF direction. I wish the bus left from somewhere in the D gates at YYZ. That way one could wait for the bus airside, including in the lounge.

I read your message just fine, but these things do not require YKF. When you arrive at YYZ, you put your bag on the automated scanner yes? It is weighing/processing your bag there. I do the same thing when I arrive at YYZ without going through YKF first. My passport is also already checked because I do online check-in.

None of these things actually require YKF. It's exactly the same process at YYZ when I arrive. Even if they wanted to provide checkin as a service, it still doesn't require YKF, all it requires is a laptop. Even PRINTING the bag tag, which is something you cannot do online, only takes about 20 seconds at Pearson. But even that, doesn't actually require YKF, it's simply a specialized printer that is needed.

In fact, if you do online check-in, what you describe arey EXTRA checks that aren't needed otherwise, if I took a GO bus, it would depart from downtown Kitchener AND I wouldn't need to have my passport checked a second time.

I'm confused about your complaint though? What do you mean by "airside", you mean past security? This is precisely my complaint. Without this, there is literally no service provided by going to YKF, if the bus arrived/departed inside the security zone, it would be valuable. You could do security, bag checking, etc. at YKF and then your arrival at YYZ would be a simple connection.

As taylortbb said, it's actually the service of *not* transporting you if your passport and visas don't check out, or if your bag is too heavy. (They are actually stricter than what is actually required because they get fined for transporting rejected passengers). When I do online checkin for international flights I also often get called at the gate for a physical passport check, which would now happen at YKF. Though that indeed only requires a laptop and they would use the machine-readable passport scanner.

(I had a disagreement with YVR checkin once where they thought I needed a NZeTA to enter NZ, but I have a visa and hence am in fact ineligible for the NZeTA.)

I also guess that leaving from not-YKF is kind of confusing if you are selling tickets from YKF. Kitchener GO is not an airport! Though there was some US carrier that used to, as I recall, sell train segments as "flights" in a similar way. And Air France/KLM has forever operated the Montreal-Ottawa bus. Apparently the Ottawa train station has airport code XDS. I don't know how that service works.

It would indeed be nice to be able to stay post-security until the bus actually leaves.

[danbrotherston]

I read your message just fine, but these things do not require YKF. When you arrive at YYZ, you put your bag on the automated scanner yes? It is weighing/processing your bag there. I do the same thing when I arrive at YYZ without going through YKF first. My passport is also already checked because I do online check-in.

None of these things actually require YKF. It's exactly the same process at YYZ when I arrive. Even if they wanted to provide checkin as a service, it still doesn't require YKF, all it requires is a laptop. Even PRINTING the bag tag, which is something you cannot do online, only takes about 20 seconds at Pearson. But even that, doesn't actually require YKF, it's simply a specialized printer that is needed.

In fact, if you do online check-in, what you describe arey EXTRA checks that aren't needed otherwise, if I took a GO bus, it would depart from downtown Kitchener AND I wouldn't need to have my passport checked a second time.

I'm confused about your complaint though? What do you mean by "airside", you mean past security? This is precisely my complaint. Without this, there is literally no service provided by going to YKF, if the bus arrived/departed inside the security zone, it would be valuable. You could do security, bag checking, etc. at YKF and then your arrival at YYZ would be a simple connection.

As taylortbb said, it's actually the service of *not* transporting you if your passport and visas don't check out, or if your bag is too heavy. (They are actually stricter than what is actually required because they get fined for transporting rejected passengers). When I do online checkin for international flights I also often get called at the gate for a physical passport check, which would now happen at YKF. Though that indeed only requires a laptop and they would use the machine-readable passport scanner.

(I had a disagreement with YVR checkin once where they thought I needed a NZeTA to enter NZ, but I have a visa and hence am in fact ineligible for the NZeTA.)

I also guess that leaving from not-YKF is kind of confusing if you are selling tickets from YKF. Kitchener GO is not an airport! Though there was some US carrier that used to, as I recall, sell train segments as "flights" in a similar way. And Air France/KLM has forever operated the Montreal-Ottawa bus. Apparently the Ottawa train station has airport code XDS. I don't know how that service works.

It would indeed be nice to be able to stay post-security until the bus actually leaves.

Stricter is actually bad, because then I am limited in what I can bring beyond what I can actually bring on the plane.

That said, I can check my baggage at home, but even if I didn't, one generally has the opportunity to shift around items or pay for heavy baggage in the airport.

As for the "confusion" of not going to YKF, I think this doesn't really matter, there are zero connections through YKF (every possible destination is served faster + cheaper by flying directly from YYZ rather than connecting through YKF) so there are precisely zero people who WANT to be at YKF. So yes, it might be surprising that you don't end up at YKF, but it shouldn't be an unwelcome surprise. But given the efforts that Air Canada goes to to show you that it will be a bus you are taking, I think they'll be able to successfully communicate that to their passengers.

And really, they could easily serve both destinations if they really were concerned.

I'd be curious to see the KLM Bus...and given that it's KLM, it's not even impossible that I could use it one day, although I'm not sure why I'd want to be in Ottawa rather than Montreal.

[SammyOES]

As for the "confusion" of not going to YKF, I think this doesn't really matter, there are zero connections through YKF (every possible destination is served faster + cheaper by flying directly from YYZ rather than connecting through YKF) so there are precisely zero people who WANT to be at YKF. So yes, it might be surprising that you don't end up at YKF, but it shouldn't be an unwelcome surprise.

YKF has long term parking facilities with easy access to the terminal. In many places around the region it’s faster to drive to the airport than downtown Kitchener. And even when it’s longer it’s <10 minutes more and the drive is much easier for people.

And the reality is that lots of people want to drive because it’s much faster and easier than the alternatives - particularly with luggage and children.

I don’t think either option is particularly bad. I agree that without doing security at YKF the utility of it being an airport seems very minimal.

So, sure nobody wants to end at YKF. But most people don’t end at Kitchener Go either. And lots of people will prefer YKF over downtown for where the bus starts/ends.

[danbrotherston]

As for the "confusion" of not going to YKF, I think this doesn't really matter, there are zero connections through YKF (every possible destination is served faster + cheaper by flying directly from YYZ rather than connecting through YKF) so there are precisely zero people who WANT to be at YKF. So yes, it might be surprising that you don't end up at YKF, but it shouldn't be an unwelcome surprise.

YKF has long term parking facilities with easy access to the terminal.  In many places around the region it’s faster to drive to the airport than downtown Kitchener.  And even when it’s longer it’s <10 minutes more and the drive is much easier for people.

And the reality is that lots of people want to drive because it’s much faster and easier than the alternatives - particularly with luggage and children.

I don’t think either option is particularly bad.  I agree that without doing security at YKF the utility of it being an airport seems very minimal. 

So, sure nobody wants to end at YKF. But most people don’t end at Kitchener Go either.  And lots of people will prefer YKF over downtown for where the bus starts/ends.

Flying is like the singular example of when wealthy people want to take transit. It’s why there is so much elite projection around it, why transit agencies prioritize airport links over other transit projects with better business cases. 

In any case, as I said there is no reason that they cannot go to both places if that really was an issue.

[westwardloo]

Looks like Hamilton won the sweepstakes for Porter expansion. 

Seems like at some point in the future either Waterloo or Hamilton airport will be the main alternative to Pearson in southwestern Ontario. Hopefully Waterloo can position itself to win the battle, I thought we would be the main draw for carriers after Play backed out of Hamilton, but with Porter and the hwy connection planned it appears like hamilton might be the more likely winner.

[Rainrider22]

I think there is this thought/perception that Hamilton is still a major city area. The fact that airline keep leaving more so than Region of Waterloo airport should suggest we deserve the opportunity. I spend a lot of time in the Owen Sound through to Port Elgin area. It is amazing how many people in those areas use YKF. I wish Porter success but I hope they still consider YKF as an alternate.

[ac3r]

Hamilton is closer to the GTA and has better connections between it. Waterloo Region has some level of significance, but not that much. It is a bit too far away for airlines to yet consider it important to the significance we may want. Most people aren't going to drive an extra distance because the check out procedure is quicker or whatever, because most people don't have that luxury. They just want an airport that's close and to get on a plane.

If Waterloo Region wants to position itself as a destination - an "alternative to Pearson" to quote above - then it needs to start thinking and acting like a big city (it doesn't...council act more like rural hillbillies than councillors of a region of 650'000+). We're a few steps ahead of Hamilton in the sense we've promoted development and have LRT, but Hamilton is still closer to our provinces largest city and they could easily steal the thunder of Waterloo Region by virtue of being closer to Toronto.

[westwardloo]

I tend to agree, I think Hamilton has the leg up and will eventually be the winner as the go to alternative to Pearson. Building out HWY 6 is a huge win for Hamilton, they are positioning themselves to be a major player in the cargo side of the business, which must be a money maker.  The layout of the Hamilton Airport appears to be more welcoming to expansion then the waterloo airport. 

Waterloo has little to no HWY connection and I don't think it has much of a cargo business. The one and only thing I think Waterloo might have the upper hand in is potential transit connectivity, if we ever get 2-way all day GO in Breslau or even HFR from Pearson to Kitchener, I could see Waterloo being the preferred alternative. Until that day though I can see carriers continue to choose Hamilton over Waterloo.

[Rainrider22]

I tend to agree, I think Hamilton has the leg up and will eventually be the winner as the go to alternative to Pearson. Building out HWY 6 is a huge win for Hamilton, they are positioning themselves to be a major player in the cargo side of the business, which must be a money maker.  The layout of the Hamilton Airport appears to be more welcoming to expansion then the waterloo airport. 

Waterloo has little to no HWY connection and I don't think it has much of a cargo business. The one and only thing I think Waterloo might have the upper hand in is potential transit connectivity, if we ever get 2-way all day GO in Breslau or even HFR from Pearson to Kitchener, I could see Waterloo being the preferred alternative. Until that day though I can see carriers continue to choose Hamilton over Waterloo.

I dont disagree with any of the above comments however, I find it interesting that the carriers always end up canceling service out of Hamilton... Perhaps its time to try something different.

[SammyOES]

It’s worth noting that there are some significant differences in Hamilton vs Waterloo.

Waterloo is an incredibly busy general aviation airport and has a large flight school and GA presence.  It has only 1 runway that can service the passenger jets at 7,000’.  Which means less resiliency for difficult weather and winds.

Hamilton is better set up for commercial traffic. Two runways for commercial jets (6,000’ and 10,000’).

Waterloo has roughly half the passengers of Hamilton but four times the number of aircraft movements. 

Right now commercial traffic is so limited at Waterloo that it fits in fine with the GA traffic.  But I could see that being an issue (if commercial traffic increased a lot) on a lot of nice sunny days when the sky is filled with Cessnas doing laps around the airport and the taxiway has a line of 6 planes waiting for a spot to take off. 

The reality is that Waterloo has potential for a bigger commercial presence but when you dig deeper there are some definite challenges.  There are plans for addressing a lot of these (like extending both runways) but it just doesn’t really seem sensible at this point.  Sort of a chicken and an egg situation.  And I’m not sure it makes sense for the Region to be the one to go first by ponying up a bunch of money and taking on a somewhat disruptive project like extending runways.

——-

Edit: Here’s a section of text from the airport that covers the importance of the runway lengths. The difference between Waterloo and Hamilton is currently very big when it comes to what can actually be accommodated.

—-

Currently, Runway 14-32 can accommodate light general aviation aircraft and flight training activity. Runway 08-26 can accommodate larger narrow-body aircraft (i.e. Boeing 737 aircraft with one aisle). Wide-body aircraft (i.e. Boeing 767 aircraft with two aisles) cannot use the airport at this time, and there is no secondary option for narrow-body aircraft. This restricts larger aircraft from operating in poor weather conditions, such as rain, ice or high winds.

Extending Runway 14-32 to a length of 2,134 metres (7,000 feet) will improve the safety and reliability of the airport. When Runway 08-26 has strong cross-winds combined with wet or icy conditions, larger narrow-body aircraft would be able to land on Runway 14-32. Additionally, scheduled air service could use Runway 14-32 when Runway 08-26 is closed for repairs.

Extending Runway 08-26 to a length of 2,663 metres (8,737 feet) will reduce the restrictions on larger aircraft operating in poor weather. It will also allow wide-body aircraft to use the airport, which need the extended length.

[plam]

It’s worth noting that there are some significant differences in Hamilton vs Waterloo.

Thanks for the info!