Kitchener, Waterloo, Cambridge and Brantford most vulnerable to tariffs

[bravado]

I think we should certainly actually change our thinking in this country towards growth = good - but to go for any kind of autarky in the current global market is a suicide plan.

You can't have low taxes and strong, protected local industries. The reason why our own industry isn't overwhelmingly strong isn't because we uniquely hate industry, it's because it's just been cheaper to buy abroad than build here for a very long time. That won't be changing any time soon, even with an orange tyrant in the White House. I don't see how we can convince Canadian capital to invest at home when there will always be a cheaper option available for import. That's a really hard hurdle to get over. Forcing them to do it via protectionist legislation means higher prices - people really hate that.

If the US relationship is truly dead, our geography means we are in a fucking monster of a pickle. There's no way around the insane land border we share. There are no meaningful examples of what to do from Europe or Australia, because they have oceans between them and the US.

As for the costs of building new in taxes, I'm 100% with you there - but the average municipal voter isn't. Those fees exist because land-owning voters don't want to pay the extra in property taxes. They will, and have been, gladly selling the next generation up the creek to keep their property taxes low. If decades of suffering from young people trying to start their lives haven't done it yet, then nothing can change people's minds on this. Any politician that proposes actually building new housing on every lot in the city and funding the infrastructure equally will lose elections tomorrow.

People blame our inability to build things on environmental legislation and "red tape" like that, but deep down that legislation is used to protect property values and enforce sprawl more than it is used to protect endangered frogs. Other countries can build because they don't let any local voter have a veto on new apartments. Are we willing to get rid of that "democratic input" and let growth happen?

[danbrotherston]

I think we should certainly actually change our thinking in this country towards growth = good - but to go for any kind of autarky in the current global market is a suicide plan.

You can't have low taxes and strong, protected local industries. The reason why our own industry isn't overwhelmingly strong isn't because we uniquely hate industry, it's because it's just been cheaper to buy abroad than build here for a very long time. That won't be changing any time soon, even with an orange tyrant in the White House. I don't see how we can convince Canadian capital to invest at home when there will always be a cheaper option available for import. That's a really hard hurdle to get over. Forcing them to do it via protectionist legislation means higher prices - people really hate that.

If the US relationship is truly dead, our geography means we are in a fucking monster of a pickle. There's no way around the insane land border we share. There are no meaningful examples of what to do from Europe or Australia, because they have oceans between them and the US.

As for the costs of building new in taxes, I'm 100% with you there - but the average municipal voter isn't. Those fees exist because land-owning voters don't want to pay the extra in property taxes. They will, and have been, gladly selling the next generation up the creek to keep their property taxes low. If decades of suffering from young people trying to start their lives haven't done it yet, then nothing can change people's minds on this. Any politician that proposes actually building new housing on every lot in the city and funding the infrastructure equally will lose elections tomorrow.

People blame our inability to build things on environmental legislation and "red tape" like that, but deep down that legislation is used to protect property values and enforce sprawl more than it is used to protect endangered frogs. Other countries can build because they don't let any local voter have a veto on new apartments. Are we willing to get rid of that "democratic input" and let growth happen?

The problem is not "democratic input"...the problem is in fact anti-democratic. People don't get an equal say, people get more or less say depending on whether they're older, wealthier, property owningier than others.

If council weighed the individual value of 300 people who would live in an a new development over the 30 or so wealthy homeowners complaining about that development then there would be no question of it getting built.

The problem is that some people count more than others, and that is a very uncomfortable fact in our society--a lot of energy is spent denying it.

And yes, the "rules and regulations" do enable this, but they don't have to, it isn't intrinsic to regulations...the EU has far more regulation and it is far more egalitarian than the regulations Canada has.

[bravado]

I put it in quotes because it's not democratic at all, and yet this sort of little veto power exists everywhere. In most EU states, the idea of the collective occasionally overriding the individual is an accepted fact of good government. To many in the anglosphere, it's deeply offensive - and is why the housing crisis is mostly an Anglosphere problem. If you can "get yours" and deny it to somebody else, driving up the value of your assets, you're gonna do it! This applies to pipelines and houses and factories and mines and all sorts of things that are public goods but subject to the craziest vetoes.

[danbrotherston]

I put it in quotes because it's not democratic at all, and yet this sort of little veto power exists everywhere. In most EU states, the idea of the collective occasionally overriding the individual is an accepted fact of good government. To many in the anglosphere, it's deeply offensive - and is why the housing crisis is mostly an Anglosphere problem. If you can "get yours" and deny it to somebody else, driving up the value of your assets, you're gonna do it! This applies to pipelines and houses and factories and mines and all sorts of things that are public goods but subject to the craziest vetoes.

Ahh, sorry I missed your point.

Yes, the collective good vs. individual liberty is a very US centric issue and "individual liberty" usually doesn't come down to EVERYONE's individual liberty, just specific people's liberty.

That said, the housing crisis is far wider than that, I can say from personal experience it's an issue in the NLs, but I've heard it's an issue all over Europe at least (well, western Europe anyway).

[bravado]

Yeah, I'm simplifying again for brevity... Human selfishness and fear of the unknown exists everywhere - but the DNA still exists in NL to build a normal block of apartments on a boring city lot. I bet there are more hurdles today than there used to be, but the ability and concept is still in people's minds.

Here? Nobody would even know how to approve one at this point, let alone build it with a normal cost structure. That goes so much deeper than taxes and fees...

I think what we've been seeing in the US for the last 20 years is the unholy combination of modern media smashing into the mostly-American cult of the individual. I don't think it's sustainable.

[Kodra24]

I shudder every time I hear collectivism - if you actually tune out the noise and observe what's happening from an economic viewpoint you will see that the US is poised for tremendous growth

- They are attracting an enormous amount of FDI (foreign direct investment) within a host of high-value and high-paying sectors
- Moreover local US firms are onshoring many of their products, in essence de-globalization is growing
- They are already a NET energy exporter (EU depends on their LNG supplies and thus have suffered tremendously due to the Russian sanctions, as Russian pipeline gas is much cheaper)
- Cutting funding of various initiatives that provide zero value to the US taxpayer, in turn exposing fraud at various levels of government

I could go on and on but it is refreshing to see a US president actually care for its own people and do what he feels is in the best interest of their country

We, on the other hand, have a prorogued parliament by a PM who could care less about the average Canadian citizen and an economy within the G20 economy poised for the lowest growth (if at all) over the next 30-50 years

What a shameful decline of a once great nation!

[plam]

I shudder every time I hear collectivism - if you actually tune out the noise and observe what's happening from an economic viewpoint you will see that the US is poised for tremendous growth

- They are attracting an enormous amount of FDI (foreign direct investment) within a host of high-value and high-paying sectors
- Moreover local US firms are onshoring many of their products, in essence de-globalization is growing
- They are already a NET energy exporter (EU depends on their LNG supplies and thus have suffered tremendously due to the Russian sanctions, as Russian pipeline gas is much cheaper)
- Cutting funding of various initiatives that provide zero value to the US taxpayer, in turn exposing fraud at various levels of government

I could go on and on but it is refreshing to see a US president actually care for its own people and do what he feels is in the best interest of their country

We, on the other hand, have a prorogued parliament by a PM who could care less about the average Canadian citizen and an economy within the G20 economy poised for the lowest growth (if at all) over the next 30-50 years

What a shameful decline of a once great nation!

Except that the US is by no means going to do that. They are destroying state capacity at a rapid clip and the current powers are aiming for an impoverished nation of serfs who can't even safely fly in an airplane.

[bravado]

I could go on and on but it is refreshing to see a US president actually care for its own people and do what he feels is in the best interest of their country

Best case scenario: A MAGA AI bot wrote this slop for you

Worst case scenario: You should say this out loud to a laid off Michigan auto worker in the next few days, they might have other thoughts about their best interest

Trade can be win-win. "Onshoring" comes with costs. We'll see if the American people are willing to pay those costs, because they've been pretty god damn price-sensitive in the past. I know this might seem like a hand-wave distraction, but there is more to quality of life and success than GDP growth. Canada and Europe has never led the US in that category, and yet here we are in the present day. The stock market becomes more detached from real life every day surviving and competing quite well on happiness. Focus on the dollars at your own risk and hope and pray that some day a billionaire doesn't just file you into a "fraud" category and cut your services off.

It's easy to destroy. It's really hard to build. You forget that too easily. Elon and his ilk have never known it in the first place.

I thought that mercantilism and autarky died in North Korean prison camps. No country can provide everything it needs on its own. The US will learn this lesson, yet again, and the people who aren't responsible for it will suffer the most. As usual.

[danbrotherston]

I shudder every time I hear collectivism - if you actually tune out the noise and observe what's happening from an economic viewpoint you will see that the US is poised for tremendous growth

- They are attracting an enormous amount of FDI (foreign direct investment) within a host of high-value and high-paying sectors
- Moreover local US firms are onshoring many of their products, in essence de-globalization is growing
- They are already a NET energy exporter (EU depends on their LNG supplies and thus have suffered tremendously due to the Russian sanctions, as Russian pipeline gas is much cheaper)
- Cutting funding of various initiatives that provide zero value to the US taxpayer, in turn exposing fraud at various levels of government

I could go on and on but it is refreshing to see a US president actually care for its own people and do what he feels is in the best interest of their country

We, on the other hand, have a prorogued parliament by a PM who could care less about the average Canadian citizen and an economy within the G20 economy poised for the lowest growth (if at all) over the next 30-50 years

What a shameful decline of a once great nation!

You could go on, but you've already proven you've drunk the kool-aid.

As for collectivism, you might shudder...if you're clinically anti-social. A less intellectual word for collectivism is community, you know the thing that conservatives like to pretend they support. The thing that is fundamentally human. The thing we have sought to purge from our society.

Yeah, I'm not being polite today to people who are tacitly supporting the economic war being waged against Canada today. Try again tomorrow.

[Kodra24]

I could go on and on but it is refreshing to see a US president actually care for its own people and do what he feels is in the best interest of their country

Best case scenario: A MAGA AI bot wrote this slop for you

Worst case scenario: You should say this out loud to a laid off Michigan auto worker in the next few days, they might have other thoughts about their best interest

Trade can be win-win. "Onshoring" comes with costs. We'll see if the American people are willing to pay those costs, because they've been pretty god damn price-sensitive in the past. I know this might seem like a hand-wave distraction, but there is more to quality of life and success than GDP growth. Canada and Europe has never led the US in that category, and yet here we are in the present day. The stock market becomes more detached from real life every day surviving and competing quite well on happiness. Focus on the dollars at your own risk and hope and pray that some day a billionaire doesn't just file you into a "fraud" category and cut your services off.

It's easy to destroy. It's really hard to build. You forget that too easily.

Didn't know that you were so sensitive to facts, I'll add links next time

Your hatred blinds you I'm afraid - what do you think creates a strong quality of life and what is the means of achieving it?

Let's check back in a year and see where everything stands

[Kodra24]

I shudder every time I hear collectivism - if you actually tune out the noise and observe what's happening from an economic viewpoint you will see that the US is poised for tremendous growth

- They are attracting an enormous amount of FDI (foreign direct investment) within a host of high-value and high-paying sectors
- Moreover local US firms are onshoring many of their products, in essence de-globalization is growing
- They are already a NET energy exporter (EU depends on their LNG supplies and thus have suffered tremendously due to the Russian sanctions, as Russian pipeline gas is much cheaper)
- Cutting funding of various initiatives that provide zero value to the US taxpayer, in turn exposing fraud at various levels of government

I could go on and on but it is refreshing to see a US president actually care for its own people and do what he feels is in the best interest of their country

We, on the other hand, have a prorogued parliament by a PM who could care less about the average Canadian citizen and an economy within the G20 economy poised for the lowest growth (if at all) over the next 30-50 years

What a shameful decline of a once great nation!

You could go on, but you've already proven you've drunk the kool-aid.

As for collectivism, you might shudder...if you're clinically anti-social. A less intellectual word for collectivism is community, you know the thing that conservatives like to pretend they support. The thing that is fundamentally human. The thing we have sought to purge from our society.

Yeah, I'm not being polite today to people who are tacitly supporting the economic war being waged against Canada today. Try again tomorrow.

A far-left socialist (and I'm trying to be nice) resorting to insults, I would have never expected it

[danbrotherston]

You could go on, but you've already proven you've drunk the kool-aid.

As for collectivism, you might shudder...if you're clinically anti-social. A less intellectual word for collectivism is community, you know the thing that conservatives like to pretend they support. The thing that is fundamentally human. The thing we have sought to purge from our society.

Yeah, I'm not being polite today to people who are tacitly supporting the economic war being waged against Canada today. Try again tomorrow.

A far-left socialist (and I'm trying to be nice) resorting to insults, I would have never expected it

I don't consider "far-left socialist" to be an insult.

The ironic thing is that most of the neocons (as you seem to be) have already realized what a mistake Trump is. And it's not because he "cares for the people" (honestly, could you think anything more absurd, I don't think so), it's because he's an erratic, incompetent, and uncontrollable narcissist who is destroying the country. Folks were more afraid of a "far-left socialist" (by US measures, a firm centrist anywhere else) and so opted for Trump, but that's not going to pay off for most. The markets are down, the financial indicators are in the red, and the wallstreet bros are getting nervous. Now, I couldn't care less about them, fuck them. But the idea that Trump is going to bring tremendous GDP growth, absurd. He will enable the riches 0.001% to concentrate the wealth of the country further to be sure...but that fucks over even most wealthy people.

[tomh009]

...as a by product, we should not be paying upwards of 50%+ income tax and taxed to absolute death in every other way.

Practically no one pays over 50% income tax in Canada. With a $100K salary you pay about 21% income tax in Ontario, and at $200K it's about 32%. Even at $500K you are only paying 45% of your income. And it's lower yet if some of that income is investment income.

Overall, Canada is very much mid-pack in OECD in terms of total taxes paid at 34.8%, which includes HST, corporate taxes, alcohol and tobacco taxes etc.
https://www.oecd.org/en/about/news/press...-grow.html

[bravado]

Didn't know that you were so sensitive to facts, I'll add links next time

Your hatred blinds you I'm afraid - what do you think creates a strong quality of life and what is the means of achieving it?

Let's check back in a year and see where everything stands

A strong quality of life: Trade, industry, resources, the rule of law, the welfare state. All things that Canada had the day before Trump was elected.

You seem to think the only reason why we don't make more things in Canada is because the liberals hate industry. We don't make things here because it's cheaper to get it elsewhere. Just say you're in favour of raising prices instead of beating around the bush. If you want to lower costs of manufacturing here, let us know which serf class you are planning on importing to do all that work for cheap. Let us know which other developed economy has solved the miracle of high wages, high costs, and high exports. Those don't occur naturally in the world without heavy subsidy.

You've got the same zero-sum view of the world as Trump - it must be miserable up in that castle thinking everyone is out to steal from you. We won't end up with iPhones Made in America™ at the end of all this, we'll just end up with no iPhones. Rinse, repeat. Through trade, cooperation, and the defeat of protectionism, we can have more than we can have just doing things on our own. That's the story of the last 300 years which you somehow missed. Trump thinks that every time an American buys a Rav4 made in Canada, he's being personally stolen from. That's childish and a deeply cynical view of the world.

It's really notable how much growing up in in the post-war period has broken so many brains. Too many Americans, and Canadians included, are convinced that the "good old days" of insane growth in the 50s was because we were just innately better. It turns out that the rest of the world was destroyed by war. Now that the rest of the world has caught up, all that innate greatness seems to have disappeared and competition is pretty fierce. So much for exceptionalism...

The United States has what it has because the world is (was?) ok with supporting them on top. When they have no friends, a great deal of their public finances become totally unsustainable. Again, that will hurt the people on the bottom most when it starts to crack.

[nms]

The last time that Canada had an example of what a closed border looked like was circa 1939 to 1941 (and possibly beyond that to the end of the Second World War) when a lot of cross-border trade was halted to keep capital in Canada. As a random example, that led to a brief flourishing of the Canadian publishing scene (including comic books) as Canadians could no longer buy American books. As a different example, with an open border in the early 1970s, the Canadian government introduced rules for Canadian content in broadcasting which mean that the Canadian music and film industries began to expand dramatically. Acts from Anne Murray, to Bryan Adams, Justin Bieber, and Drake would not be where they are today if the Canadian government had not legislated space for Canadians in Canadian media. I'm not sure how our friends to the south would react today to those rules, but we can look no further than the current government legislation to protect the digital space and see how big tech (and the government behind them, or vice versa) is reacting to being told that they must support Canadian content if they wish to operate in Canada.