High-Speed Rail (HSR) - Toronto/Pearson/Kitchener/London

[danbrotherston]

As an aside rant...I hate Pearson, it's a terrible airport...I don't know why we got stuck with such nonsense. Schiphol has no end of problems here, but I've had nothing but smooth experiences in it.

And as an aside response, I don't hate Pearson, it's better than many other airports that I have traveled through, and especially many US ones.

YYZ is busy, and it can get crowded, but the T1 redesign dates to well before COVID, and T3 is from before the 9/11 attacks and subsequent security clampdown. Check-ins are slower now, security is slower now, boarding is slower now, immigration and customs are slower now -- and all of those contribute to increased congestion.

I won't claim to have been to a huge number of airports, but I definitely preferred SFO and SEA to Pearson. I was at LGA and it was...much much worse.

It's not just crowding that is a problem, but the inconsistent design and confusing navigation. This is largely to do--I think--with the layout being...reconfigurable? It seems that different spaces can be used for US bound flights or international flights at different times, and those spaces are segregated by doors that are opened or closed at different times.

This also becomes a huge problem when flights are delayed. My last flight to the Netherlands was at the gate next to a US bound flight which was delayed. This meant the doors were closed and we couldn't go into the space where our gate was and we had 4 full flights crowding into the waiting room for 2 gates. More, because these spaces are all segregated, they don't have full facilities or restaurants.

Other parts of the airport might be better...I rarely fly domestically so I don't see them all that often.

[dtkvictim]

Other parts of the airport might be better...I rarely fly domestically so I don't see them all that often.

I've flown domestically from YYZ quite a few times. Sometimes it's slow getting through, but overall I was never really unhappy or miserable.

Getting to the airport on the other hand...

[SF22]

Other parts of the airport might be better...I rarely fly domestically so I don't see them all that often.

I've flown domestically from YYZ quite a few times. Sometimes it's slow getting through, but overall I was never really unhappy or miserable.

Getting to the airport on the other hand...

My gripe with Pearson is more the expense of the flights than the airport itself, but seconding the issues with getting there in the first place! I won't take transit to the airport because it is A) super limited in availability, and B) with the way flights have been getting delayed lately, I don't trust that I will make it back at my expected time, which leaves me stranded at any hour of the day with no way home, if I miss the train.

I really hope that the "Union Station West" idea actually gets traction and gets built. It would be a direct route to the airport from KW, plus would allow for transfers to a bunch of other transit routes without having to travel all the way into the heart of Toronto. I'd love to know how many cars we could pull off the road if we managed to get even 50% of people heading to the airport using transit instead.

[plam]

I've flown domestically from YYZ quite a few times. Sometimes it's slow getting through, but overall I was never really unhappy or miserable.

Getting to the airport on the other hand...

My gripe with Pearson is more the expense of the flights than the airport itself, but seconding the issues with getting there in the first place! I won't take transit to the airport because it is A) super limited in availability, and B) with the way flights have been getting delayed lately, I don't trust that I will make it back at my expected time, which leaves me stranded at any hour of the day with no way home, if I miss the train.

I really hope that the "Union Station West" idea actually gets traction and gets built. It would be a direct route to the airport from KW, plus would allow for transfers to a bunch of other transit routes without having to travel all the way into the heart of Toronto. I'd love to know how many cars we could pull off the road if we managed to get even 50% of people heading to the airport using transit instead.

Yes, train please. I actually take transit to Pearson all the time. It's not the best but sometimes it can work out, either the 25C or the 30 GO buses. Probably on Friday I'll be taking a taxi because I have a limited amount of time to get to the airport and the taxi can use the HOV lane and it might be snowing. Most recently I took the flixbus back from the airport, but I could have easily missed it.

I did have an annoying experience two weeks ago with trying to fly out of New Chitose (Sapporo) with a 100 minute flight delay meaning my flight would arrive after the last transit (train) from the airport; that was around 10pm. I took 11 hours of train instead.

[danbrotherston]

Other parts of the airport might be better...I rarely fly domestically so I don't see them all that often.

I've flown domestically from YYZ quite a few times. Sometimes it's slow getting through, but overall I was never really unhappy or miserable.

Getting to the airport on the other hand...

This is a great point. Usually this is a major issue I have as well, when we come from Kitchener for a flight we would take transit but it would be frustrating and risky. Any crash on the 401 could risk us making our flight. 

This time however it was easy, the UP express gets us downtown quickly. Although I was wanting to go to KW I arrived on a weekend and so had to stay in Toronto till Monday when there was a train. 

As for cost, I don’t find it more expensive than other airports. I usually check Montreal as the next major nearby airport (and technically a shorter distance) and it has been more expensive. Where do you find cheaper flights? I am very interested. Flights to Europe have doubled in cost.

[plam]

I've flown domestically from YYZ quite a few times. Sometimes it's slow getting through, but overall I was never really unhappy or miserable.

Getting to the airport on the other hand...

This is a great point. Usually this is a major issue I have as well, when we come from Kitchener for a flight we would take transit but it would be frustrating and risky. Any crash on the 401 could risk us making our flight. 

This time however it was easy, the UP express gets us downtown quickly. Although I was wanting to go to KW I arrived on a weekend and so had to stay in Toronto till Monday when there was a train. 

As for cost, I don’t find it more expensive than other airports. I usually check Montreal as the next major nearby airport (and technically a shorter distance) and it has been more expensive. Where do you find cheaper flights? I am very interested. Flights to Europe have doubled in cost.

I haven't updated this since the pandemic and it's missing flixbus in particular, but I did write this in 2019:

https://patricklam.ca/post/20191226-trav...-waterloo/

Flights in Canada are more expensive than flights in the US, but flying in the US is terrible. There are also the ultra-low cost carriers which are also terrible (but maybe it's just because I can afford to not fly them). I think that the ULCCs also induce more demand than I'm comfortable with, but then, is it that I'm just saying "I can fly and you can't, because I have money"?

It is certainly a super annoying risk factor that the 401 being broken means you miss your flight, and that can and does happen anytime.

[SF22]

I've flown domestically from YYZ quite a few times. Sometimes it's slow getting through, but overall I was never really unhappy or miserable.

Getting to the airport on the other hand...

This is a great point. Usually this is a major issue I have as well, when we come from Kitchener for a flight we would take transit but it would be frustrating and risky. Any crash on the 401 could risk us making our flight. 

This time however it was easy, the UP express gets us downtown quickly. Although I was wanting to go to KW I arrived on a weekend and so had to stay in Toronto till Monday when there was a train. 

As for cost, I don’t find it more expensive than other airports. I usually check Montreal as the next major nearby airport (and technically a shorter distance) and it has been more expensive. Where do you find cheaper flights? I am very interested. Flights to Europe have doubled in cost.

In terms of cost, Canada is just expensive to fly within, in general. It costs just as much to go from Toronto to Montreal (1hr) as it does to fly Toronto to Miami (3hrs). I know that there's some historical rent reason about how Pearson was original developed that has resulted in higher-than-normal fees to fly in/out, but here's an article that generally covers the reasons behind Canadian airfare costs.

Honestly, I make flights cheaper by using the points on my credit card to help cover some of the cost, but those points used to cover a full ticket and it doesn't go nearly as far anymore. Theoretically you could fly from the Waterloo Regional Airport on one of the discount airlines, but that doesn't help if you're trying to get to Europe, and most of those airlines only work out of Waterloo 3 times a week. 

At any rate, I decided to book GO/VIA for our next trip to Montreal this summer, because 8 hours of train travel time from Kitchener to downtown Montreal is only about 2 hours longer than the whole process of driving to Pearson, waiting for the plane, hoping the plane isn't late, landing in Montreal, and taking the bus into downtown. And it was less than half the price!

[tomh009]

It is certainly a super annoying risk factor that the 401 being broken means you miss your flight, and that can and does happen anytime.

401 is indeed annoying, though somewhat less so if someone else is driving.

And you can indeed miss your flight because of traffic or (more likely) an accident, but it really does not happen very often. I have taken several hundred flights from YYZ, and I have missed a flight due to the 401 issues exactly once. And I generally would get to the airport 90-120 minutes ahead of departure, so that's not based on a huge safety margin.

[danbrotherston]

I seem to recall that there were different (greater) subsidies at play in the US vs. Canada.

But yeah, Canadian flights aren't cheap. Once upon a time I'd fly into Buffalo or Detroit, but I'm unwilling to do that now...and not just because I won't travel to the US but also because it's super inconvenient with a child.

FWIW, I'm okay with low cost carriers pushing down the barrier to entry for flying. I think the ability to travel is a social good. My objection to flying is more the wastefulness of it. Flying for a once in a lifetime trip to experience other cultures, or for immigration, or to return home to visit family on occasion is fine. Flying to Paris for the weekend because you're a billionaire or racking up 100,000 flyer miles in a year because you're an executive who hasn't figured out Zoom...well...those are the problem people. And also, the flights from Toronto to Montreal...a trip that should be handled much more competitively with a high speed train...those are the problem flights. If we eliminated all those air travel would be worth the harm it creates, IMO. As is...we have work to do.

[plam]

It is certainly a super annoying risk factor that the 401 being broken means you miss your flight, and that can and does happen anytime.

401 is indeed annoying, though somewhat less so if someone else is driving.

And you can indeed miss your flight because of traffic or (more likely) an accident, but it really does not happen very often. I have taken several hundred flights from YYZ, and I have missed a flight due to the 401 issues exactly once. And I generally would get to the airport 90-120 minutes ahead of departure, so that's not based on a huge safety margin.

You're right, I haven't missed flights from YYZ either and I have quite a large number of flights from there. It's the potential of missing flights that's worse than actually missing them. We'll see what happens tomorrow in a potential snowfall situation with leaving Waterloo 115 minutes before my flight departure. Not ideal.

I seem to recall that there were different (greater) subsidies at play in the US vs. Canada.

But yeah, Canadian flights aren't cheap. Once upon a time I'd fly into Buffalo or Detroit, but I'm unwilling to do that now...and not just because I won't travel to the US but also because it's super inconvenient with a child.

FWIW, I'm okay with low cost carriers pushing down the barrier to entry for flying. I think the ability to travel is a social good. My objection to flying is more the wastefulness of it. Flying for a once in a lifetime trip to experience other cultures, or for immigration, or to return home to visit family on occasion is fine. Flying to Paris for the weekend because you're a billionaire or racking up 100,000 flyer miles in a year because you're an executive who hasn't figured out Zoom...well...those are the problem people. And also, the flights from Toronto to Montreal...a trip that should be handled much more competitively with a high speed train...those are the problem flights. If we eliminated all those air travel would be worth the harm it creates, IMO. As is...we have work to do.

I believe that airports are more subsidized in the US than in Canada.

Buffalo flights are also less attractive than they used to be.

So the thing about low cost carriers is that it really does get people flying to Paris for the weekend. I dunno. Then again they are flying to Paris relatively efficiently. But less efficiently than in a train.

I really would take alternatives for Toronto to Montreal whenever possible, but with the current schedules, that's not very often unfortunately. I used to be able to do it more.