ION Stage 3 Speculation - Facts, Theories, Speculation, Rumors!

[Canard]

How many kilometres would a line be that started at Conestoga Mall and ran down King to University, over to Erb, down Ira Needles, and across town on Victoria (or Highland/Belmont/Victoria) to the transit hub?

~16 km:

   

[dunkalunk]

Given current plans, here's my fantasy map for Stage 3.



Stage 1/2 ION
Laurer-Waterloo Park station decomissioned.
Infill stations at McCormick, University Ave (to intersect with University line/develop UW South lots/UWP), Perimeter Institute (Barrelyards), Agnes (filling the gap between GRH and Central), Highway 401 (built in conjunction with GO/Greyhound Park and Ride). Politically, Stage 2 needs to happen before Stage 3, despite Stage 3 likely being more viable.

iXpress
Routes largely unchanged. 201 and 202 iXpress routes end at UW terminal. New bus-only road is built through Conestoga College campus, and crosses the Grand River on a new bridge required for the 8/401 flyover on the South side of the 401.

University ION
Built as an extension from Conestoga Mall to the Boardwalk like the preliminary plan. Intersects with Stage 1 ION at University Ave. Station spacing is tighter in the University/Northdale district to serve development.

GO Stations
Additional stations built in Baden (at Nafziger Rd), Kitchener West (South of the Boardwalk), and Baden (Greenhouse Rd). Hourly all-day, two-way service to Toronto with additional bi-directional peak trains.

Grand Trunk RER
Runs between New Hamburg and Guelph along the Double-Tracked, GO owned, Electrified Guelph Subdivision. Runs every 15 minutes between Ira Needles and Region of Waterloo International Airport. Potential extensions to New Hamburg and Guelph (could feasibly be run as a GO service). Connects with ION service at Kitchener West GO and Central Station.

[timio]

In a fantasy world where nothing is ridiculous, one would hope they would grade separate at University and Columbia on Phase 1. Phase 1 drop into a trench north of Seagram and rise north of Columbia. The issue of whether or not the grade would be too steep for the freight arises, but in this fantasy world, that isn't an issue because it isn't.

The alternate would be to drop University and Columbia below the tracks, space permitting.

[MidTowner]

Infill stations at McCormick, University Ave (to intersect with University line/develop UW South lots/UWP), Perimeter Institute (Barrelyards), Agnes (filling the gap between GRH and Central), Highway 401 (built in conjunction with GO/Greyhound Park and Ride). Politically, Stage 2 needs to happen before Stage 3, despite Stage 3 likely being more viable.

We must be neighbours. Agnes would be extremely useful for me, but I can't see it being justified for a long time. GRH and Central are barely a kilometre apart, and there's not a lot of call for a stop at Agnes (it would be nice for the elementary students).

[dunkalunk]

I did used to live off of Shanley, however, not anymore. The thinking was that if LRT stops are within 500m, there's not really a need for a local bus service on that street anymore and buses could be moved over to Park or more where that can provide better coverage of the Cherry Hill  and Mount Hope neighbourhoods. In addition, the midtown corridor is zoned for mid to high density mixed-use, so an additional station will help serve new residents.

[Pheidippides]

On the original map, where do the planners currently envision the Highland/Queen route go when it reaches downtown?

It is hard to tell from the map, especially with the red colour of the "existing" iXpress 204 almost on top of the red/yellow of stage 3 (which isn't even the actual existing or future 204 route).
   

It looks like Queen to Charles to Victoria? That would seem to be a difficult route due to the grade and sharp turn and narrow space.

Do they envision the WB stage 3 and the SB stage 1 sharing the Charles track from Victoria @ King to Charles @ Queen?

[JoeKW]

Not sure why you put an LRT line on Ira Needles. There won't be much expansion west of it (well, maybe with Doug Ford)... wouldn't it make more sense to put it on Fischer Hallman?

[danbrotherston]

Not sure why you put an LRT line on Ira Needles. There won't be much expansion west of it (well, maybe with Doug Ford)... wouldn't it make more sense to put it on Fischer Hallman?

This was my thinking as well.  But you're right, sadly so much depends on how the next few elections go.

I fear what revering to sprawl oriented policies will do to Ontario.  We think intensification is hard now, just wait.

[KevinL]

I can see a western GO station justifying LRT to it, and Ira Needles has more room for that than Fischer-Hallman.

[danbrotherston]

I can see a western GO station justifying LRT to it, and Ira Needles has more room for that than Fischer-Hallman.

There's room for a GO station at either Fischer-Hallman or Ira Needles.

Now there may not be as much room for a gigantic park and ride at Fischer-Hallman, but I hope we're past that type of station planning.  There is certainly more room for growth at Ira Needles, but I think the point is, we don't want to grow in that way.

To jump way outside Phase 3 LRT planning and into the GO Planning universe, that's frankly, something I'd like to see happen at the confirmed station in Breslau, instead of building parking lots, build a complete transit oriented walkable village.

[MidTowner]

There's room for a GO station at either Fischer-Hallman or Ira Needles.

Now there may not be as much room for a gigantic park and ride at Fischer-Hallman, but I hope we're past that type of station planning.  There is certainly more room for growth at Ira Needles, but I think the point is, we don't want to grow in that way.

To jump way outside Phase 3 LRT planning and into the GO Planning universe, that's frankly, something I'd like to see happen at the confirmed station in Breslau, instead of building parking lots, build a complete transit oriented walkable village.

We're not.

I agree with you about Breslau: actual transit-oriented development there would be great, if they are set on building the station. But it's likely to be a massive park-and-ride.

[Canard]

I would be all for a massive Park-and-Ride in Breslau. Stations without parking work great for urban cores. For the rest of the people living outside of downtown, driving and having somewhere to park at a station is the only way they'll be able to use the system.

[panamaniac]

Not sure why you put an LRT line on Ira Needles. There won't be much expansion west of it (well, maybe with Doug Ford)... wouldn't it make more sense to put it on Fischer Hallman?

If the line is going to serve the west side, it seems wrong not to cover The Boardwalk.

[Viewfromthe42]

Not sure why you put an LRT line on Ira Needles. There won't be much expansion west of it (well, maybe with Doug Ford)... wouldn't it make more sense to put it on Fischer Hallman?

In reality, right now the NDP has positioned itself as the party of sprawl in a subtle but more damaging way than Doug Ford had. Ford at least backed away from doing land swaps in the green belt. Horwath has continually spoken as much about the war on car as Doug (without calling it that), has positioned herself as the candidate who believes "more buses" are the solution to transit woes, rather than fixed high capacity routes.

But most problematic was her pitch to un-toll the provincially-owned section of the 407, as well as the 412 and 418. Doing this would put a far greater pressure on destroying the green belt and creating even more exurban commuting zones than any of Ford's proposals.

It's a stretch (but one I'm comfortable imagining) that with the aim of un-tolling highways, and of bringing private infrastructure under public control (regarding our electrical system), she might even consider trying to acquire the 407 and untoll it, and with that, truly become the party of sprawl.

I invite anyone who doubts the impact of creating highway capacity on our ability to hold off on development to take a look at the unprotected land area between the triangle of Cambridge, Waterloo, and Guelph, and watch as the new highway 7 turns farms into subdivisions.

[chutten]

I invite anyone who doubts the impact of creating highway capacity on our ability to hold off on development to take a look at the unprotected land area between the triangle of Cambridge, Waterloo, and Guelph, and watch as the new highway 7 turns farms into subdivisions.

I too appreciate the pressure that tollways place on restricting sprawl, but at what point do we let the municipalities off the hook for permitting subdivisions to be built? Ultimately zoning is a local decision, not a Provincial one, no?