Highway 401 Widening - Highway 8 to Townline Road

[jeffster]

LOL, I love how it’s just a year.

Why do projects like this get to have such wild and massive unspecific timelines and nobody cares, and people lose their shit when ion slips a few months?

Usually because these projects get completed ahead of time, rather than multiple delays. Good example was Victoria Street bridge that opened ahead of schedule -- by a week or so, but ahead none-the-less.

[timio]

Every project has its caveats as to whether or not it will be done on time. Weather is a huge one for public works projects, but also availability of materials and staff, as well as other things that can only be estimated / best guessed for when the timelines are set.

[tomh009]

Every project has its caveats as to whether or not it will be done on time.  Weather is a huge one for public works projects, but also availability of materials and staff, as well as other things that can only be estimated / best guessed for when the timelines are set.

Highway widening (or a bridge replacement) is much more predictable, though, than, say, rebuilding King St (where many unknowns lurk in the ground). Or a systems project such as integrating the region's control system with our trains.

[jeffster]

Every project has its caveats as to whether or not it will be done on time.  Weather is a huge one for public works projects, but also availability of materials and staff, as well as other things that can only be estimated / best guessed for when the timelines are set.

Highway widening (or a bridge replacement) is much more predictable, though, than, say, rebuilding King St (where many unknowns lurk in the ground). Or a systems project such as integrating the region's control system with our trains.

And the misery of the highway work will likely continue after all of this widening is done, and my guess that this will be when they start building a normal exit from highway 8 bypass to the 401 west London, flyovers and lots of fun.

[timio]

Next up is Hespeler to Townline (2019 - 2021), followed by Townline -> Highway 25 in Milton (to be tendered, so who knows what the split is going to look like)

The RFP has closed for the Credit River -> Highway 25, so likely to be awarded in the next 6-12 months. So no matter which way you look at it, we're likely in for another decade until the proposed 401 widening is complete through Mississauga.

[danbrotherston]

Next up is Hespeler to Townline (2019 - 2021), followed by Townline -> Highway 25 in Milton (to be tendered, so who knows what the split is going to look like)

The RFP has closed for the Credit River -> Highway 25, so likely to be awarded in the next 6-12 months.  So no matter which way you look at it, we're likely in for another decade until the proposed 401 widening is complete through Mississauga.

Which should be just in time for traffic engineers to declare the section in KW too congested and in need of widening, so continues the cycle of perpetual widening.

[jamincan]

If they widen through Milton and up the escarpment, they would likely address most of the congestion issues. Between 6 and Guelph Line is a long stretch with no merging traffic, so it tends to always move well unless they're is an accident.

[danbrotherston]

Induced demand guarantees congestion.

Congestion is a function of too low a price not too little road.

[jamincan]

Broadly speaking that is true, but it's just as simplistic model as saying congestion = not enough road and building more. Overall, this stretch of highway is getting more congested. I feel this is largely due to the heavy volumes of truck traffic on the route, which is definitely in part due to induced demand, but also just a factor of just-in-time manufacturing that likely wouldn't change even if the 401 was ground to a halt.

What's also clear to me, though, is that the traffic moves well except for a few points. Those points are between Hwy 8 and Townline Road, going up the escarpment east of Guelph Line, and between 25 and Trafalgar Rd. in Milton. This is largely due to merging traffic in the urban areas, and slow truck traffic blocking the right two lanes on the hill up the escarpment. The latter is clearly an issue of road design leading to congestion and is a problem that can be fixed by better designing the road either lowering the grade, or simply adding a lane through that section to facilitate passing.

[danbrotherston]

And you don't think there's existing latent demand in Guelph and KW that will fill up any gains we make--never mind the development that will occur. I know I personally avoid Toronto because of traffic on the 401.

I would make a pretty sizeable bet that in 10-15 years time frame travel times to Toronto will have increased, not decreased.

[Canard]

We can’t do nothing, though.

I’ve been driving between Toronto and KW as long as I’ve been driving. I remember back around 2000 it was fine. It’s so bad now even on a Sunday that I hardly ever go to Wonderland anymore (I used to go a couple of times a week!).

I just want to know when the flyover ramp lane reconfiguration from 8>401EB and from 401WB>8 will be up and running. Having those two lanes blend in or strip off seamlessly is the key to making my commute go from 45 minutes back down to 12...

[danbrotherston]

We can’t do nothing, though.

I’ve been driving between Toronto and KW as long as I’ve been driving. I remember back around 2000 it was fine. It’s so bad now even on a Sunday that I hardly ever go to Wonderland anymore (I used to go a couple of times a week!).

I just want to know when the flyover ramp lane reconfiguration from 8>401EB and from 401WB>8 will be up and running. Having those two lanes blend in or strip off seamlessly is the key to making my commute go from 45 minutes back down to 12...

Oh, I totally agree that we can't do nothing, but we should do the right things.  The problem is pricing and lack of transit, the solution in my opinion would be tolls and transit.

If 15 years ago, instead of planning this widening, the government had implemented congestion based tolls, and greatly expanded transit service (all way-two way GO service with say 20 minute frequency plus buses), I suspect we'd all be able to get to Toronto quickly now...

Of course, for some reason, charging for a valuable good is politically impossible, so I don't really have any hope that it will occur.

[tomh009]

I’ve been driving between Toronto and KW as long as I’ve been driving. I remember back around 2000 it was fine. It’s so bad now even on a Sunday that I hardly ever go to Wonderland anymore (I used to go a couple of times a week!). 

It was fine around 2000, because it had just been widened in the mid-1990s to three lanes each way. Ten years earlier, it was absolutely awful.

And as Dan said, the cycle will repeat. The only question is how long this latest widening will last. Hopefully with the upcoming advent of proper GO service (and the continuing increase in telecommuting) it'll last substantially longer than the 20 or so years that the current configuration has.

[timio]

Before the snow fell, it looked like the earth was mostly level near the CP overpass. Somewhat doubtful we'll see more action on this for the winter, but with a few days of warmer temperatures to melt the snow, there may be some movement.

[Canard]

They've been doing all sorts of paving the last few days WB. I'm very cautiously optimistic maybe they'll fully-open the Westbound configuration in the next few months?!