ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit

[danbrotherston]

That being said, I may be biased, I don't want this relationship "salvaged"...there's nothing of value I see here.  Very disappointed that this has happened.

The problem is that switching to another supplier at this point is not likely to be easy, quick or inexpensive. I don't know anything about the root causes of the problems we are seeing but it may be quicker to address those than to start over again.

Fixing things is relative, given my experience with the software, "fixing" things won't ever result in a good user experience...the company simply isn't capable of it...even the things which work, are bad...

I suspect the regional staff see it the same as you do, but I am not looking to using this trash indefinitely.

[danbrotherston]

Also I was looking at the latest council report on ION and there are a few interesting points.

• A bunch of revenue, boarding, and ridership data that's hard to draw any conclusions from due to the transit strike and COVID-19.
  
• Bombardier has essentially halted warranty deficiency work on the LRVs since February, again due to COVID-19.
  
• Bombardier is replacing deficient welds on 11 of the region's LRVs at the OMSF over the next two years. They claim the issue poses no safety risk but is being done to meet the expected 30 years service life.
  
• Bombardier is building a spare LRV for the region in Kingston, to be delivered late 2020 or early 2021.
  
• Approximately 11% of fares are inspected daily. 3% of inspected riders have not paid their fare, and approximately 35 people are charged with provincial offences related to fares every month.
  
• The region didn't anticipate the failure rate with platform validators and had to order more spare units as a result.
  
• Various work was done on the fare system during the free fare period, including altering the fare payment terminals to improve cashless transaction speed (has anyone noticed improvements?).
  

I wonder if the 3% includes expired fares. I will admit I did get caught the other day with a transfer that expired about 2 minutes before the fare inspector boarded. I tapped on at Conestoga, which still had 10 mins left on my card, and the LRV lingered for a few minutes like it usually does, and the fare inspectors got on at Northfield. When he mentioned the fare expired two minutes earlier, he just asked if I tapped at Conestoga or not, and then went on to the next person.

I used to get the monthly pass, but where my ridership dropped significantly due to me working from home, its no longer feasible for me to get one until the office reopens.

We were (eventually) told that this is an acceptable use of the system, and that it wouldn't be considered non-payment of fares, so it shouldn't be included in the 3%...although it absolutely could be, because they often don't seem to be on the same page.  Of course, it's on the honour system anyway....so I'll ask again, why are we inspecting 10% of fares...that is absolutely nuts.

[tomh009]

The problem is that switching to another supplier at this point is not likely to be easy, quick or inexpensive. I don't know anything about the root causes of the problems we are seeing but it may be quicker to address those than to start over again.

Fixing things is relative, given my experience with the software, "fixing" things won't ever result in a good user experience...the company simply isn't capable of it...even the things which work, are bad...

I suspect the regional staff see it the same as you do, but I am not looking to using this trash indefinitely.

Forever is a rather long time, and I do expect we'll see something new yet. But this type of system is not plug-and-play, so, even if contracts allow, I don't think we could do a switch to a different supplier quickly. But I really don't know the internals of this.

[trainspotter139]

Fixing things is relative, given my experience with the software, "fixing" things won't ever result in a good user experience...the company simply isn't capable of it...even the things which work, are bad...

I suspect the regional staff see it the same as you do, but I am not looking to using this trash indefinitely.

Forever is a rather long time, and I do expect we'll see something new yet. But this type of system is not plug-and-play, so, even if contracts allow, I don't think we could do a switch to a different supplier quickly. But I really don't know the internals of this.

User Experience can be updated to be more cohesive. Definitely should have started the system with the cardholders, and the platform fair validators definitely should have been more reliable. But overall the system is working fairly well. It certainly isn't having as many issues as the TTC has had with Presto.

[danbrotherston]

Forever is a rather long time, and I do expect we'll see something new yet. But this type of system is not plug-and-play, so, even if contracts allow, I don't think we could do a switch to a different supplier quickly. But I really don't know the internals of this.

User Experience can be updated to be more cohesive. Definitely should have started the system with the cardholders, and the platform fair validators definitely should have been more reliable. But overall the system is working fairly well. It certainly isn't having as many issues as the TTC has had with Presto.

I am suggesting a complete replacement of the provider. Yes, this would not be simple.

We are absolutely having far far more issues than TTC did with presto. They have had only one or two main issues. Where as we have had virtually every part of the system completely broken. Payment doesn't work, the website is garbage, the platform machines are garbage, the user interfaces for all these things are junk. The on bus system is too slow for people paying with cash.

About the only thing that I haven't heard major issues with is the onboard farecard fare-payment on buses, which, ironically, is the main issue Presto had on TTC.

[taylortbb]

We are absolutely having far far more issues than TTC did with presto. They have had only one or two main issues. Where as we have had virtually every part of the system completely broken. Payment doesn't work, the website is garbage, the platform machines are garbage, the user interfaces for all these things are junk. The on bus system is too slow for people paying with cash.

Those are all issues that Presto had too. The Presto website is now, more than a decade later, not garbage. But it definitely started that way. TVMs not working, validators not working, etc are all problems that have happened with every Presto rollout. The only that hasn't is cash fares, and that's because Presto doesn't support cash fares, requiring agencies to instead run totally parallel cash payment systems with incompatible transfers. Which has the effect of making ridership and transfer tracking far more difficult, or impossible, for agencies using Presto.

Presto uses much of the same equipment we do, just with different software. If we're having hardware failures then Presto would have too.

[danbrotherston]

We are absolutely having far far more issues than TTC did with presto. They have had only one or two main issues. Where as we have had virtually every part of the system completely broken. Payment doesn't work, the website is garbage, the platform machines are garbage, the user interfaces for all these things are junk. The on bus system is too slow for people paying with cash.

Those are all issues that Presto had too. The Presto website is now, more than a decade later, not garbage. But it definitely started that way. TVMs not working, validators not working, etc are all problems that have happened with every Presto rollout. The only that hasn't is cash fares, and that's because Presto doesn't support cash fares, requiring agencies to instead run totally parallel cash payment systems with incompatible transfers. Which has the effect of making ridership and transfer tracking far more difficult, or impossible, for agencies using Presto.

Presto uses much of the same equipment we do, just with different software. If we're having hardware failures then Presto would have too.

Maybe, but none of those issues applied to TTC adopting Presto which only happened after those issues were ironed out, nor would they have applied to us. I'd have preferred if we had bought a system that had those issues fixed.  I don't want to wait another 10 years for this bullshit to get fixed in our system.  It is absurd, that with a completely standard system, we were unable to buy a working off the shelf solution, whether presto, or whatever.

[tomh009]

As I recall, Presto's fare structure did not have the flexibility that the region wanted. But I don't remember the details ...

[bgb_ca]

Those are all issues that Presto had too. The Presto website is now, more than a decade later, not garbage. But it definitely started that way. TVMs not working, validators not working, etc are all problems that have happened with every Presto rollout. The only that hasn't is cash fares, and that's because Presto doesn't support cash fares, requiring agencies to instead run totally parallel cash payment systems with incompatible transfers. Which has the effect of making ridership and transfer tracking far more difficult, or impossible, for agencies using Presto.

Presto uses much of the same equipment we do, just with different software. If we're having hardware failures then Presto would have too.

Maybe, but none of those issues applied to TTC adopting Presto which only happened after those issues were ironed out, nor would they have applied to us. I'd have preferred if we had bought a system that had those issues fixed.  I don't want to wait another 10 years for this bullshit to get fixed in our system.  It is absurd, that with a completely standard system, we were unable to buy a working off the shelf solution, whether presto, or whatever.

It's not as simple as just "Buying" presto. If they went with Presto (Which they didn't because at the time they didn't have the features needed, and Presto did not enter a bid), it would have to be integrated into the Presto network, and a portion of every fare would have to be paid to Presto.

While it would be nice to have the same card as the GTA, I have no problems having both a Presto card and a GRT card (I only carry around my presto card when I head to the GTA. Last time I used it was in November.)

At this point, to change the system over to Presto would not be cheap, and would likely lead to fare increases.

[danbrotherston]

Maybe, but none of those issues applied to TTC adopting Presto which only happened after those issues were ironed out, nor would they have applied to us. I'd have preferred if we had bought a system that had those issues fixed.  I don't want to wait another 10 years for this bullshit to get fixed in our system.  It is absurd, that with a completely standard system, we were unable to buy a working off the shelf solution, whether presto, or whatever.

It's not as simple as just "Buying" presto. If they went with Presto (Which they didn't because at the time they didn't have the features needed, and Presto did not enter a bid), it would have to be integrated into the Presto network, and a portion of every fare would have to be paid to Presto.

While it would be nice to have the same card as the GTA, I have no problems having both a Presto card and a GRT card (I only carry around my presto card when I head to the GTA. Last time I used it was in November.)

At this point, to change the system over to Presto would not be cheap, and would likely lead to fare increases.

These are all choices we make, and at the end of the day, for various reasons, we have chosen a path which was a) riskier (which bit us in the ass) and b) clearly worse for the user--but this is nothing new for non-car-occupants in the region.

[taylortbb]

Those are all issues that Presto had too. The Presto website is now, more than a decade later, not garbage. But it definitely started that way. TVMs not working, validators not working, etc are all problems that have happened with every Presto rollout. The only that hasn't is cash fares, and that's because Presto doesn't support cash fares, requiring agencies to instead run totally parallel cash payment systems with incompatible transfers. Which has the effect of making ridership and transfer tracking far more difficult, or impossible, for agencies using Presto.

Presto uses much of the same equipment we do, just with different software. If we're having hardware failures then Presto would have too.

Maybe, but none of those issues applied to TTC adopting Presto which only happened after those issues were ironed out, nor would they have applied to us. I'd have preferred if we had bought a system that had those issues fixed.  I don't want to wait another 10 years for this bullshit to get fixed in our system.  It is absurd, that with a completely standard system, we were unable to buy a working off the shelf solution, whether presto, or whatever.

I really think you're severely understating the number of issues that the TTC rollout specifically had. Yes, the website was good by then, but the TTC rollout of Presto was a total disaster with years of non-functional equipment. There were significant discussions about whether it was right for the TTC to be doing fare enforcement on streetcars when Presto validators were failing so consistently, and many vehicles were running without a single working validator. The TTC estimate of the amount of fare revenue they lost due to non-working validators is substantial.

I agree that government IT projects are terrible way too often, and that governments needs to fundamentally change how they purchase technology. I'm not defending the current situation as acceptable. But you seem to think that the failure is exclusively ours, when based on other cities it appears any other fare card wouldn't be any better.

[plam]

I agree that government IT projects are terrible way too often, and that governments needs to fundamentally change how they purchase technology. I'm not defending the current situation as acceptable. But you seem to think that the failure is exclusively ours, when based on other cities it appears any other fare card wouldn't be any better.

We have one comparison point here, Presto. What about other places? I admit I haven't followed the rollout of other cards closely. I just use them when I'm in some place and they seem to work.

[Bytor]

OPUS had problems, too, with both roll-out and non-working fare machines on busses https://blog.fagstein.com/2008/09/06/opus-sucks-too/

[bgb_ca]

Someone on UT posted one of Canardiain's tweets with a picture of the upcoming 515

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1276966352461410306

[Bytor]

https://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/11-of-14-io...-1.5016817
"11 of 14 ION LRT trains need repairs under warranty; no safety concerns"

The FB comments are the usual shit from the usual suspects.