Taxation and the middle class

[ijmorlan]

 Also I’d like to see the occasional discussion of “we’d like to do this for all of us, but we have to pay for it so we’re proposing the following tax increase” rather than the usual lying about increasing government services while putting money back in our pockets.

You'd like a tax increase? Really?

If it pays for something worthwhile, obviously, and so do enough others that we keep electing governments that provide services to the people (and taxing us to pay for them).

[tomh009]

 Also I’d like to see the occasional discussion of “we’d like to do this for all of us, but we have to pay for it so we’re proposing the following tax increase” rather than the usual lying about increasing government services while putting money back in our pockets.

You'd like a tax increase? Really?

Some things are worth paying, are they not?

[plam]

You'd like a tax increase? Really?

If it pays for something worthwhile, obviously, and so do enough others that we keep electing governments that provide services to the people (and taxing us to pay for them).

My overall provincial/federal tax rate is 27% on a quite good salary. Yes, I would like a tax increase, rather than this bonkers Ontario thing where people think that they can not pay taxes and yet still receive services. Or, they defer the infrastructure deficit to later generations.

[Bytor]

 Also I’d like to see the occasional discussion of “we’d like to do this for all of us, but we have to pay for it so we’re proposing the following tax increase” rather than the usual lying about increasing government services while putting money back in our pockets.

You'd like a tax increase? Really?

Yes. How do you propose we properly pay for public infrastructure?

At the municipal level we've got more than a century's worth of infrastructure repairs that need to be done if we continue at the current rate, not accounting for any new infra that will also age out, too. Why? because we've had decades and decades of voters wanting property tax kept as low as possible.

Conservative politicians like Doug Ford using the idea of keeping the taxes low, or even cutting them, as a way to hide the "starve the beast" strategy being used on healthcare, education, and government services as a way to get people to accept privatization.

That attitude is a neoliberalist cancer, a relative of "trickle down" and blind worship of Adam Smith's "invisible hand", all of which have spread further than they should have.

[ijmorlan]

If it pays for something worthwhile, obviously, and so do enough others that we keep electing governments that provide services to the people (and taxing us to pay for them).

My overall provincial/federal tax rate is 27% on a quite good salary. Yes, I would like a tax increase, rather than this bonkers Ontario thing where people think that they can not pay taxes and yet still receive services. Or, they defer the infrastructure deficit to later generations.

I agree, except that it’s not just an Ontario thing

[tomh009]

Conservative politicians like Doug Ford using the idea of keeping the taxes low, or even cutting them, as a way to hide the "starve the beast" strategy being used on healthcare, education, and government services as a way to get people to accept privatization.

That attitude is a neoliberalist cancer, a relative of "trickle down" and blind worship of Adam Smith's "invisible hand", all of which have spread further than they should have.

I do wonder whether Doug Ford's reading repertoire is really quite that extensive. 🙂

[nms]

A lot of the government energy that inspired big things after the Second World War can be traced to the desire to avoid the turmoil that immediately followed the First World War, plus the fear that not looking after the population at large could lead to, among other things, communism. Interestingly, that same post-war period also inspire many private and community "big ideas" that still exist today. Rather than complaining that everything was broken, people simply got things done.

As a thought exercise, if some of the wealth that is currently parked in the 1% were sent to the public purse in some way, how much of the infrastructure and programming backlog could be fixed?

On a similar note, the Mulroney government introduced the GST (now HST) which went a long a way towards bringing new revenue into federal coffers. The Trudeau government introduced the carbon tax as means to pay for the desperately needed climate resiliency (and other environmental damages). When the Chretien Liberals were elected, they promised to get rid of the GST, but here it is more than 30 years later. Once challenge for the Polievre Conservatives will be how to replace the lost revenue if they follow through on their promise to remove the carbon tax. After 40+ years of cost-cutting and asset selling, there really isn't much left to do that won't be problematic.

[ijmorlan]

As a thought exercise, if some of the wealth that is currently parked in the 1% were sent to the public purse in some way, how much of the infrastructure and programming backlog could be fixed?

It’s not quite that simple. If you could extract $1 trillion from wealthy people, that wouldn’t magically create more trained construction workers. But if the point is that our society has lots of resources and should be able to accomplish big things, then that is definitely true.

On a similar note, the Mulroney government introduced the GST (now HST) which went a long a way towards bringing new revenue into federal coffers.  The Trudeau government introduced the carbon tax as means to pay for the desperately needed climate resiliency (and other environmental damages).  When the Chretien Liberals were elected, they promised to get rid of the GST, but here it is more than 30 years later.  Once challenge for the Polievre Conservatives will be how to replace the lost revenue if they follow through on their promise to remove the carbon tax. After 40+ years of cost-cutting and asset selling, there really isn't much left to do that won't be problematic.

The carbon tax is mostly rebated to people. So all cancelling it does is eliminate the rebate.

Well, I suppose they could keep the rebate and cut something else, but that seems more complicated. Anyway, the Liberals messed up the carbon tax implementation, specifically the part where people realize they’re getting new money from the government and why, so I think a lot of people barely if at all notice that they’re receiving a rebate related to the small tax increase they’re seeing elsewhere.

[tomh009]

Well, I suppose they could keep the rebate and cut something else, but that seems more complicated. Anyway, the Liberals messed up the carbon tax implementation, specifically the part where people realize they’re getting new money from the government and why, so I think a lot of people barely if at all notice that they’re receiving a rebate related to the small tax increase they’re seeing elsewhere.

I do expect that people WILL notice NOT getting the rebate, though--although, by then, it'll be too late.

[ijmorlan]

I do expect that people WILL notice NOT getting the rebate, though--although, by then, it'll be too late.

True enough. Similarly, people will definitely notice what happens if Poilievre becomes PM, but as you say, it will be too late at that point. We’ll lose at least some good things in this country before people wise up.