Road design, safety and Vision Zero

[ijmorlan]

Does anyone know what the rules are when there is a traffic light for a pedestrian crossing at an intersection, but the traffic light doesn't cross one of the roads at the intersection? I'm specifically thinking about the intersection at Albert and Seagram here.

Albert is North-South, and there is a traffic light across Albert that turns red after the pedestrian button is pushed. Immediately to the south of the light Seagram T-intersects Albert, I think with a stop sign. To the south of Seagram there is a stop line for northbound traffic on Albert.

When the light is green it's obvious what everyone should do. When the light is red:
1. Do cars turning from Albert northbound to Seagram need to stop? They are facing a red light and making a left turn, which suggests yes, but if the traffic light only controls the pedestrian crossing then it shouldn't affect them.
2. After stopping at the stop sign, do cars turning from Seagram to Albert northbound need to wait for the light to turn green, or can they turn once the crosswalk is clear?

There was almost an accident here last night when a car ran the red light turning left from Albert onto Seagram.  There was honking and I just heard the turning driver yell “it’s allowed”.  I’d never heard or seen this theory before so started looking it up online and of course it’s been discussed here.

I’m wondering how there was almost a collision. Signal or no, vehicles turning left have to yield to pedestrians crossing Seagram and to southbound vehicles on Albert. Was the driver so busy being “correct” that he wasn’t watching?

It seems 100% obvious that the left turn is prohibited on red because there’s a stop line for the turn lane. A stop line that doesn’t exist for turn lanes where you don’t have to stop for a light/sign.

Thanks for pointing this out. I had been unsure, but I agree the presence of a stop line indicates left-turning traffic is supposed to stop for the red. That being said, it still doesn’t make sense for the pedestrian crossing light to control left turns — it’s not a fully signalized intersection, just one with a pedestrian crossing. So vehicles turning left can do so just as safely on a red as on a green; actually more safely because southbound vehicles are stopped.

Followup question: is right turn on red allowed for southbound vehicles, given there is no signed prohibition? If the pedestrian crossing was north of the intersection (I won’t give a distance, but I mean far enough that it definitely doesn’t control the intersection), then it would be clear that going through the red to reach the right turn would be a violation; but on the other hand it would be equally clear that the left turns we’ve been discussing would be uncontrolled. On the other hand, the whole purpose of the crossing is to stop vehicles crossing the crossover, so it’s weird for right turns on red to be allowed.

(yes, I’m aware of the idea that rights turns on red should never be allowed, and I think it’s a reasonable idea, but I’m talking about the current situation where some such turns are definitely allowed)

Overall, I don’t like these pedestrian signal lights at intersections — either fully signalize the intersection, or have a crosswalk with a button to activate warning lights (an option which has been available for decades, protestations to the contrary notwithstanding).