Road design, safety and Vision Zero

[danbrotherston]

Sorry, I forgot to get around to responding to this.

So I think you're thinking about it conceptually wrong. When you enter a "40km/h area"...it is simply a change to the default speed limit, it's now 40 not 50. All other rules apply the same. Speed limit signs apply when the limit is different from the default (I suppose theoretically you could put a 50km/h road in a 40 zone...but that just seems like spite). 

I might have described my understanding poorly, but that is how I was thinking about it. And I get the reasoning behind it and only having to sign the exits to the area vs signing every single street. I'm fine with that.

The Queen St. section is rather egregious...the whole street should just be simplified to be 30km/h (or like...just fucking close the section in the park already).

Agreed.

As for "ends" the only time those signs are used AFAIK is when the speed limit is returning to the default limit. I.e., you'd never put a 50km/h sign, you'd just say the 40km/h restriction ends.

This is where what you're saying conceptually falls apart for me. My example above has no AREA signs, and thus isn't a local change to the default speed limit, it's just a regular road that differs from the speed limit. And so using an "END" sign doesn't do anything to save on the number of signs, but does add to confusion.

In fact, I had a skim through the Ontario Traffic Manual and now I think that the ENDs sign isn't even supposed to be used with speed limit signs unless accompanied for the AREA sign. There are examples of the END tab sign being used in conjunction with all other kinds of regulations (e.g. construction zones), but with the exception of AREAs, there is no example or regulation showing an ENDs sign with a speed limit sign. Though it is possible I've simply missed something.

So in my example there is no reason to have a 40km/h ENDs sign (and it's possibly against the traffic manual), and I think the speed limits on Heins and Theresa are 50km/h unless they are themselves signed.

As for an overreliance on signage, you're absolutely right. In the Netherlands you'd have a pretty good chance of guessing the speed limit without even seeing a sign. 

I can't seem to post pictures anymore...but this is the speed limit sign on entrance to my neighbourhood: https://www.google.com/maps/@52.1835707,...?entry=ttu 

It also uses "zone" terminology (which translates to ... zone) but the sign is pretty minimal. Nobody is going to be confused about the speed limit in our neighbourhood, the design of the roads makes it completely obvious how fast you should travel (or frankly, are physically capable of travelling).

You have to stop posting NL streetview and making the rest of us sad. It's hard to believe that neighbourhood is a relatively new build.

I think any comment on the signs used in the Netherlands is almost moot, because they are hardly needed. But to comment anyways, I think the signs there are better. The beginning of the zone, from what I can tell, is distinct from regular speed limit signs in that it's rectangular while still being recognizable at the glance and thus can be understand quicker. And more importantly, the sign exiting the zone is visually distinct from from the entrance having no color and strike through, and doesn't even need to be read.

I contrast that zone exit sign with ours, where I recently passed by the end of a 40 area but my brain only intuitively registered "I just saw a 40km/h sign, so the speed limit is 40". I had to actually think to realize that I knew I was already in a 40 area so that must have been the sign ending the area. The speed limit on our AREA ENDs signs don't actually matter, yet it's what catches your brain over the AREA and ENDS signs, which do actually matter.

Combine this with the unreadable reduced speed limit during school hour signs (especially with speed cameras getting people to following them) and I see a lot of people who I think don't actually know what the speed limit is (not just choosing the drive below the limit). Combine them with the people who do know and take the liberty of an extra 10-15 over and you sometimes get dangerous speed differences. Though in general I guess it's not the worst for people to not know a 40 area has ended, or think the 40 school zones are in effect at all hours, since it does result in some lower speeds?

Yeah, I do think there is a disconnect between how the speed limits are presented and how we (or I at least) are taught how they work. The idea of a "default" limit was kinda vaguely gestured at but it was never really made a core concept. The "speed limit ends" signs are just kinda pointless, they should just have the limit which is actually in force, that would be a far better way to communicate to road users.

All I'm suggesting is that there is a historical reason for using them...that back when speed limits weren't a universal thing, they made sense.

(And I'd be curious...I suspect those signs would be used in Germany in places where the speed limit does in fact end...but that's Germany, where the drivers are precise and rigid and also apparently entirely insane.)

I will say the "end" signs here were confusing for me when I first arrived here, I didn't immediately understand what it meant when there was a grey sign with a slash through it...but they are at least extremely distinct from the beginning signs and also symbolic and not relying on an understanding of a particular language (although the Dutch absolutely do not shy away from using Dutch on road signs).

But I think much more important than the specific signs is how the entire roadway design cues the user without even using signage.

That being said, I showed a picture from our neighbourhood which is...particularly good, albeit still very car accessible. It is newer and Dutch designs have been getting better (just as NA has....albeit, slowly and far behind). If you look at neighbourhoods here that were built in the 60s you'll find stuff that is much much more familiar to Canada. And even stuff built in the 80, 90, 00s will often be still fairly car oriented. The suburb called Leusden near us is certainly very bike friendly, but is also very car oriented. The intersections are wide and fast, lots of traffic signals, relatively wide residential streets--it would feel very familiar, except with added bike infrastructure.

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.1207629,...?entry=ttu

It is quite interesting to see just how many different stops there are on the continuum between car dependent hellhole and car free utopia .