GO Transit

[tomh009]

Metrolinx announces increased weekday service across the GO Transit network: https://blog.metrolinx.com/2021/08/26/me...t-network/

That's seven morning train options (from 05:09 to 8:39) plus 11:39, 14:41 and 20:39, all from Kitchener to Union Station. Not all day, but it is slowly improving.

And trip times are now down to 1:41 for express, and about 1:50 for non-express. I assume these are due to the improvements in Guelph.

[nms]

The same announcement also indicates that the 30 is being extended to UW and WLU.

[danbrotherston]

Well, apparently rumors were true:

https://lfpress.com/news/local-news/afte...for-london

London will be getting GO service. I'm not an expert on transit planning, maybe this is a realistic plan that actually will help, but frankly, I doubt it.

The travel times are EXTREME. 4 hours to Toronto, even our pathetic intercity via trains can do MUCH better. The reason for this extremely slow train is to go through Kitchener, which is fair, lots from London may choose to come to Kitchener, BUUUUT...in that case a Toronto centric/Toronto bound commuter ONLY service makes little sense. What if I want to go to London (which I do). I literally cannot do it with this service.

Is it possibly the case this is the best they can do for very cheap, maybe. But it's pathetic...and it won't help me, or people like me, and I really doubt any Toronto bound commuters are going to sit for four hours on a train rather than drive (or just take the Via at ~2 hours).

Again, I'm not a transit planner, but a much faster service hitting the Lakeshore via Brantford would have made more sense for Toronto commuters, and a two way shuttle between KW and London would have made more sense for KW <-> London service...we get neither. This seems like more mediocre, poorly planned floundering and bad faith compromise.

Also FWIW, they're expecting about 68 total passengers on the west of KW leg. That's an awfully small number for a full size GO Train.

[ac3r]

Everyone on Twitter is like "omg 4 hours‽". Like, yeah? What country do you think you're in.

I wonder how long this will last because with travel times taking that long, it'll be pretty hard to break even as I doubt a lot of people will use it.

[KevinL]

It seems like this is a pilot to test demand; if there's enough usage they can undergo a number of improvements, most key of which will be upgrading the track in the St. Mary's area which is in very poor shape just now.

What's odd is that GO is not supplementing this with bus service, at least not immediately. If we had that in parallel I imagine ridership would be even higher.

[tomh009]

Everyone on Twitter is like "omg 4 hours‽". Like, yeah? What country do you think you're in.

I wonder how long this will last because with travel times taking that long, it'll be pretty hard to break even as I doubt a lot of people will use it.

Yeah. Three hours would have been a miracle, maybe with no stops between Kitchener and London. Mind you, I have no idea of the track conditions west of Kitchener.

But 2x 4h doesn't really seem like a viable daily commute. Maybe for an occasional day trip to Toronto, but that's it.

[ijmorlan]

Also FWIW, they're expecting about 68 total passengers on the west of KW leg. That's an awfully small number for a full size GO Train.

68? That can fit on a single double-decker SuperLo, according to a page from Metrolinx:

https://blog.metrolinx.com/2020/09/08/th...nd-beyond/

And the trip between London and Kitchener can be done in about 1¼ hours:

https://goo.gl/maps/kw9fh5L9f9r57Lwe9

So while I’m a big fan of trains, it’s obvious that this service should be implemented with buses to start, and only switched to trains when a suitable combination of track upgrades allowing comparable travel time and ridership increases justifying running a train take place.

Hang on a moment, I didn’t consider intermediate stops. If I force the route to go through Stratford, travel time goes up to a bit over 1½ hours while distance is almost the same. OK, so actually my point still stands. We use trains because they are higher capacity and/or faster than buses; it makes no sense to have a train which is lower (used) capacity and slower than a bus.

[danbrotherston]

It seems like this is a pilot to test demand; if there's enough usage they can undergo a number of improvements, most key of which will be upgrading the track in the St. Mary's area which is in very poor shape just now.

What's odd is that GO is not supplementing this with bus service, at least not immediately. If we had that in parallel I imagine ridership would be even higher.

How can a pilot like this test demand, unless the goal is to prove there is no demand?

[danbrotherston]

Also FWIW, they're expecting about 68 total passengers on the west of KW leg. That's an awfully small number for a full size GO Train.

68? That can fit on a single double-decker SuperLo, according to a page from Metrolinx:

https://blog.metrolinx.com/2020/09/08/th...nd-beyond/

And the trip between London and Kitchener can be done in about 1¼ hours:

https://goo.gl/maps/kw9fh5L9f9r57Lwe9

So while I’m a big fan of trains, it’s obvious that this service should be implemented with buses to start, and only switched to trains when a suitable combination of track upgrades allowing comparable travel time and ridership increases justifying running a train take place.

Hang on a moment, I didn’t consider intermediate stops. If I force the route to go through Stratford, travel time goes up to a bit over 1½ hours while distance is almost the same. OK, so actually my point still stands. We use trains because they are higher capacity and/or faster than buses; it makes no sense to have a train which is lower (used) capacity and slower than a bus.

Given the lower operating costs of buses vs. trains, they could literally run three buses (London -> Toronto: fast), (London <-> KW express), and (London - St. Marys - Stratford - Kitchener).

[bgb_ca]

68? That can fit on a single double-decker SuperLo, according to a page from Metrolinx:

https://blog.metrolinx.com/2020/09/08/th...nd-beyond/

And the trip between London and Kitchener can be done in about 1¼ hours:

https://goo.gl/maps/kw9fh5L9f9r57Lwe9

So while I’m a big fan of trains, it’s obvious that this service should be implemented with buses to start, and only switched to trains when a suitable combination of track upgrades allowing comparable travel time and ridership increases justifying running a train take place.

Hang on a moment, I didn’t consider intermediate stops. If I force the route to go through Stratford, travel time goes up to a bit over 1½ hours while distance is almost the same. OK, so actually my point still stands. We use trains because they are higher capacity and/or faster than buses; it makes no sense to have a train which is lower (used) capacity and slower than a bus.

Given the lower operating costs of buses vs. trains, they could literally run three buses (London -> Toronto: fast), (London <-> KW express), and (London - St. Marys - Stratford - Kitchener).

While busses would probably be better for this, if they did trains, I would say have a train or two run from London to kitchener or Guelph, and have the same train go back and forth during non peak times. Have one or two peak trains go to Toronto,

But yes, that 3 route plan would probably be better to attract ridership.

One thing to note, I saw they will not install presto in London/st Mary's/Stratford, so even if you have a presto card you need to buy a single ride ticket.

[danbrotherston]

Given the lower operating costs of buses vs. trains, they could literally run three buses (London -> Toronto: fast), (London <-> KW express), and (London - St. Marys - Stratford - Kitchener).

While busses would probably be better for this, if they did trains, I would say have a train or two run from London to kitchener or Guelph, and have the same train go back and forth during non peak times. Have one or two peak trains go to Toronto,

But yes, that 3 route plan would probably be better to attract ridership.

One thing to note, I saw they will not install presto in London/st Mary's/Stratford, so even if you have a presto card you need to buy a single ride ticket.

WTAF....

What exactly are they spending 2.5 million dollars on?!

They wouldn't even have this problem with buses either as the readers are on the bus.

Honestly, sometimes I really want to meet the people in charge of these decisions and ask them what they are thinking, because some of the decisions I see are just...stupid.

[Chris]

How many people are commuting from London to TO for daily work? I can't imagine anyone is driving this each day to be in an office. Beyond the train time you still have to get to and from the stations. That could make this a 5-6 hour trip unless your destination on both ends is next to the stations.

I see this service more akin to Via. Cheaper and slower than Via for overnight trips.

[Acitta]

I could really use a morning train to London, or even several daily bus trips like Greyhound used to have 10 or 15 years ago.

[tomh009]

One thing to note, I saw they will not install presto in London/st Mary's/Stratford, so even if you have a presto card you need to buy a single ride ticket.

Apparently, London is too far to run an Ethernet cable to. Or maybe there is no electricity at the London station?

[danbrotherston]

How many people are commuting from London to TO for daily work? I can't imagine anyone is driving this each day to be in an office. Beyond the train time you still have to get to and from the stations. That could make this a 5-6 hour trip unless your destination on both ends is next to the stations.

I see this service more akin to Via. Cheaper and slower than Via for overnight trips.

But that's the thing, it's timed for commute trips.

While I don't think many are commuting daily, some might commute one day a week.  Regardless, nobody is giving up their car for this...hell, I wouldn't give up Via for this.

The ONLY trips this makes sense are London -> KW and the timing is terrible there.