Road design, safety and Vision Zero

[jwilliamson]

Construction staging for the Larch St woonerf has begun.

[danbrotherston]

There was a serious, violent, and tragic collision in London last night. Multiple pedestrians were killed (the police will not even say how many, only that some were sent to the children's hospital). This one hits close to home for me, I drive that stretch on a regular basis. My parents live on Hyde Park Rd. and I grew up near there.

I want to raise it because that road is very new, completely widened and reconstructed in the last 10 years or so (that section in the last 4 years). It was built to the highest modern standards the city has, great bike lanes, centre median with plantings. In many ways, this is the road London wants to build everywhere.

And it is absolute trash.

It is never safe for any users. The painted bike lanes have no value except to increase speeds on the road, they certainly do not protect anyone. The wide comfortable lanes, again increase speeds. The limit varies from 50 to 60, but if you drive less than 70 km/h on any section of that road, you will be aggressively tailgated, with drivers eventually forcing their way around you (only to see them at the next light).

I cannot comprehend how it is possible for engineers to be so bad at their jobs.

London passed a Vision Zero plan four years ago. While this road predates it, they have made ZERO progress on changing anything. I hope Kitchener's VZ plan is less pointless, but even if it was as ambitious as you want, until the region is willing to make the same changes, we will not see a safe road network in our city--because for many or even most in the region's engineering organization...this is also the ideal road for them. They get to pretend to create a complete street, while continuing to prioritize fast motor vehicle speeds over every and everything. And even better, they can just blame bad drivers for situations like these.

Edit: LFP has an update this morning. FOUR people killed, including one child. Another child is clinging to life. I mean, I'd like to think this will shock people to action, but last year a drunk driver from Kitchener blew up an entire block of homes and nobody cared then either.

[Acitta]

I considered moving to London a couple of years ago because of my mother (100 years old) and my brother living there and the rents being a bit cheaper, but I decided that I hated the place because the traffic is so much worse than KW.

[danbrotherston]

I considered moving to London a couple of years ago because of my mother (100 years old) and my brother living there and the rents being a bit cheaper, but I decided that I hated the place because the traffic is so much worse than KW.

Yeah, it's always funny when people here complain about the traffic. These folks usually dismiss Toronto as "well they're just a big city"...and I say...no, London...a smaller city than us has MUCH worse traffic.

But perspective has never been a human strength.

Sadly, we have another collision this morning, a two year old toddler was run over on Victoria St. at Paulander. I believe going to the daycare that I am supposed to tour on Wednesday. I'm just horrified. This section of road is notoriously dangerous, I can think of a half dozen serious or fatal collisions on this section.

Of course, the region plans to reconstruct it, but like most regional plans, the priority is on vehicle throughput. There will be bike lanes squeezed in because that's the bike plan, but in no way will vehicle speed be compromised for safety.

[taylortbb]

Edit: LFP has an update this morning. FOUR people killed, including one child. Another child is clinging to life. I mean, I'd like to think this will shock people to action, but last year a drunk driver from Kitchener blew up an entire block of homes and nobody cared then either.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/lo...-1.6056238

This appears to be a murder and hate crime. While I believe you that the road is horrible for pedestrian safety, I think the level of infrastructure required to protect against attempts to murder is very different from general safety, and road design isn't the causal factor here.

[danbrotherston]

Edit: LFP has an update this morning. FOUR people killed, including one child. Another child is clinging to life. I mean, I'd like to think this will shock people to action, but last year a drunk driver from Kitchener blew up an entire block of homes and nobody cared then either.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/lo...-1.6056238

This appears to be a murder and hate crime. While I believe you that the road is horrible for pedestrian safety, I think the level of infrastructure required to protect against attempts to murder is very different from general safety, and road design isn't the causal factor here.

It is absolute a horrific crime.

Racism and islamophobia are clearly the root cause...and certainly are the most important issue to discuss about this story, and the only issues I feel comfortable advocating publicly about on this story.

But road design (and especially vehicle design) is absolutely a causal factor (a causal factor being “a major contributor to an incident that if eliminated would have either prevented or reduced the severity severity of the incident. Also known as a contributing cause.”). Yes, absolutely protecting pedestrians from all malicious acts a driver can commit is very different, but many of the same design features that make roads and vehicles safer from driver error would also make them safer from malicious acts.

Just as restrictions on firearms are effective at limiting but not eliminating the harm done by terrorists, the same applies here.

[jeffster]

Edit: LFP has an update this morning. FOUR people killed, including one child. Another child is clinging to life. I mean, I'd like to think this will shock people to action, but last year a drunk driver from Kitchener blew up an entire block of homes and nobody cared then either.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/lo...-1.6056238

This appears to be a murder and hate crime. While I believe you that the road is horrible for pedestrian safety, I think the level of infrastructure required to protect against attempts to murder is very different from general safety, and road design isn't the causal factor here.

Not too surprised, coming from London. I am a 'white' guy, with some indigenous heritage, not much. Anywho, I've been to London several times, and have been yelled out "Get the f*** out of our city, you f***** Jew." No one outside of London has mistaken me for being Jewish, not that I would have a problem with that. But this has happened to me 3 times while in London with threats. That city has some serious issues. Traffic is just another one of the issues.

[danbrotherston]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/lo...-1.6056238

This appears to be a murder and hate crime. While I believe you that the road is horrible for pedestrian safety, I think the level of infrastructure required to protect against attempts to murder is very different from general safety, and road design isn't the causal factor here.

Not too surprised, coming from London. I am a 'white' guy, with some indigenous heritage, not much. Anywho, I've been to London several times, and have been yelled out "Get the f*** out of our city, you f***** Jew." No one outside of London has mistaken me for being Jewish, not that I would have a problem with that. But this has happened to me 3 times while in London with threats. That city has some serious issues. Traffic is just another one of the issues.

I've not personally experienced it, but I have heard from friends I grew up with London definitely has racism problems. But I don't necessarily think they're any bigger than we have here, I mean, we are all painfully aware of the hate posters posted in Wilmot, you know the ones that WRPS and the Crown Attorney feel are entirely acceptable under Canadian law, the ones that are clearly promoting a hate group...don't really understand that but regardless, leaving that aside, a friend of mine who is Asian routinely have slurs shouted at them on the way to Kitchener market. Another friend had an egg thrown at him. Racism is present in our community. We've got to address it.

[ijmorlan]

Edit: LFP has an update this morning. FOUR people killed, including one child. Another child is clinging to life. I mean, I'd like to think this will shock people to action, but last year a drunk driver from Kitchener blew up an entire block of homes and nobody cared then either.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/lo...-1.6056238

This appears to be a murder and hate crime. While I believe you that the road is horrible for pedestrian safety, I think the level of infrastructure required to protect against attempts to murder is very different from general safety, and road design isn't the causal factor here.

Note: I’m deliberately thinking about this in a detached way. I have to do this for my own mental health.

Given that, part of what I find interesting about this is how quickly the police identified it as a murder. As I understand it, the charges are 1st degree murder x4 + attempted murder. None of this “vehicular manslaughter” stuff. No discussion of what colour clothing the victims were wearing.

I think the sentences should be served consecutively, and anybody who expresses any support for the perpetrator should be investigated with an eye to identifying and punishing past, present, or future hate crimes.

I’m not even sure if I’m serious about that last paragraph. It could be read as a massive expansion of government/police monitoring of speech; but on the other hand, if there is one kind of person we don’t need out and about in our society it would be anybody who thinks that casually murdering a family for being the wrong religion or skin colour is even understandable, never mind an actual good. Certain beliefs need to be brutally suppressed, even in a free and democratic society.

This case is also a point where hate crimes and car culture meet up. Would the perpetrator have been able to commit this crime with another weapon? Most car-related violence is unintentional; it’s sloppy driving by people who don’t intend to hurt anybody, even if their level of care for those outside their vehicle is entirely insufficient. In this case it’s (apparently; trial to confirm) intentional. It would be interesting to know what kind of a driver the perpetrator normally is: do they normally speed through quiet streets and cut off pedestrians at crosswalks, or are they a perfectly reasonable driver when they aren’t deliberately killing people? Are there any past incidents or near-incidents which were not properly identified at the time?

[creative]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/lo...-1.6056238

This appears to be a murder and hate crime. While I believe you that the road is horrible for pedestrian safety, I think the level of infrastructure required to protect against attempts to murder is very different from general safety, and road design isn't the causal factor here.

Note: I’m deliberately thinking about this in a detached way. I have to do this for my own mental health.

Given that, part of what I find interesting about this is how quickly the police identified it as a murder. As I understand it, the charges are 1st degree murder x4 + attempted murder. None of this “vehicular manslaughter” stuff. No discussion of what colour clothing the victims were wearing.

I think the sentences should be served consecutively, and anybody who expresses any support for the perpetrator should be investigated with an eye to identifying and punishing past, present, or future hate crimes.

I’m not even sure if I’m serious about that last paragraph. It could be read as a massive expansion of government/police monitoring of speech; but on the other hand, if there is one kind of person we don’t need out and about in our society it would be anybody who thinks that casually murdering a family for being the wrong religion or skin colour is even understandable, never mind an actual good. Certain beliefs need to be brutally suppressed, even in a free and democratic society.

This case is also a point where hate crimes and car culture meet up. Would the perpetrator have been able to commit this crime with another weapon? Most car-related violence is unintentional; it’s sloppy driving by people who don’t intend to hurt anybody, even if their level of care for those outside their vehicle is entirely insufficient. In this case it’s (apparently; trial to confirm) intentional. It would be interesting to know what kind of a driver the perpetrator normally is: do they normally speed through quiet streets and cut off pedestrians at crosswalks, or are they a perfectly reasonable driver when they aren’t deliberately killing people? Are there any past incidents or near-incidents which were not properly identified at the time?

What a load of horseshit!

[danbrotherston]

Note: I’m deliberately thinking about this in a detached way. I have to do this for my own mental health.

Given that, part of what I find interesting about this is how quickly the police identified it as a murder. As I understand it, the charges are 1st degree murder x4 + attempted murder. None of this “vehicular manslaughter” stuff. No discussion of what colour clothing the victims were wearing.

I think the sentences should be served consecutively, and anybody who expresses any support for the perpetrator should be investigated with an eye to identifying and punishing past, present, or future hate crimes.

I’m not even sure if I’m serious about that last paragraph. It could be read as a massive expansion of government/police monitoring of speech; but on the other hand, if there is one kind of person we don’t need out and about in our society it would be anybody who thinks that casually murdering a family for being the wrong religion or skin colour is even understandable, never mind an actual good. Certain beliefs need to be brutally suppressed, even in a free and democratic society.

This case is also a point where hate crimes and car culture meet up. Would the perpetrator have been able to commit this crime with another weapon? Most car-related violence is unintentional; it’s sloppy driving by people who don’t intend to hurt anybody, even if their level of care for those outside their vehicle is entirely insufficient. In this case it’s (apparently; trial to confirm) intentional. It would be interesting to know what kind of a driver the perpetrator normally is: do they normally speed through quiet streets and cut off pedestrians at crosswalks, or are they a perfectly reasonable driver when they aren’t deliberately killing people? Are there any past incidents or near-incidents which were not properly identified at the time?

What a load of horseshit!

That's what you take exception too?  Not the future crimes punishment? Which, for the record, is where I must disagree.

In any case, it's quite right. This person managed to kill four people and injure a fifth in a single collision. Part of the reason he was able to do this was because he was driving a large, dangerous, and particularly lethal pickup. If he was driving a smaller, safer vehicle, there's a good chance the harm would have been less.

But I digress...freedom is not and should not be absolute. I am frankly scared that the police and crown attorney have decided not to prosecute the acts of hate in our community. I fear that this will only embolden these people, and I fear for my many friends in this community who may be further victimized as a result. And it makes me so angry, I can only imagine how one must feel to be the targets of this hate.

[jeffster]

Not too surprised, coming from London. I am a 'white' guy, with some indigenous heritage, not much. Anywho, I've been to London several times, and have been yelled out "Get the f*** out of our city, you f***** Jew." No one outside of London has mistaken me for being Jewish, not that I would have a problem with that. But this has happened to me 3 times while in London with threats. That city has some serious issues. Traffic is just another one of the issues.

I've not personally experienced it, but I have heard from friends I grew up with London definitely has racism problems. But I don't necessarily think they're any bigger than we have here, I mean, we are all painfully aware of the hate posters posted in Wilmot, you know the ones that WRPS and the Crown Attorney feel are entirely acceptable under Canadian law, the ones that are clearly promoting a hate group...don't really understand that but regardless, leaving that aside, a friend of mine who is Asian routinely have slurs shouted at them on the way to Kitchener market. Another friend had an egg thrown at him. Racism is present in our community. We've got to address it.

So this is aging myself quite badly, but I digress. When I was a very young child, my dad took us to the Eat-n-Putt. To be honest, it was just another empty promise my parents would make, but that's another story. So anyhow, we go there, probably close to 10:00PM, and we get out and start walking to the restaurant, and a group of young men come out and yell at my dad "Go home paki, they're closed!" I asked my dad "what's a paki" as I had no idea. My dad just mumbled something under his breath.

His skin colouring was much darker though, and obviously the indigenous blood was deeper.

I think I had mentioned another story here about my dad, how he was arrested by WRPS for a crime he didn't commit (even as far as the witnesses (or really, the victims) telling the police they had the wrong man). He had his company lawyer trying to get him out, but the police insisted on a confession for a crime he didn't commit. My dad refused, and eventually was let go. There was a story about it in The KW Record the next day "Wrong man nabbed." He did get pulled over quite a bit, but was always let get when they saw the last name.

So yes, systemic racism is alive today, but it has existed for some time, and it's infiltrated into our police system really bad, with no commitment to end it (other than attempting to make a cute looking police cruiser).

This London thing though, so so sad. I personally haven't experience racism in Kitchener, though my dad did, especially with WRPS. I have only experienced it in London (3x).

[jeffster]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/lo...-1.6056238

This appears to be a murder and hate crime. While I believe you that the road is horrible for pedestrian safety, I think the level of infrastructure required to protect against attempts to murder is very different from general safety, and road design isn't the causal factor here.

Note: I’m deliberately thinking about this in a detached way. I have to do this for my own mental health.

Given that, part of what I find interesting about this is how quickly the police identified it as a murder. As I understand it, the charges are 1st degree murder x4 + attempted murder. None of this “vehicular manslaughter” stuff. No discussion of what colour clothing the victims were wearing.

I think the sentences should be served consecutively, and anybody who expresses any support for the perpetrator should be investigated with an eye to identifying and punishing past, present, or future hate crimes.

I’m not even sure if I’m serious about that last paragraph. It could be read as a massive expansion of government/police monitoring of speech; but on the other hand, if there is one kind of person we don’t need out and about in our society it would be anybody who thinks that casually murdering a family for being the wrong religion or skin colour is even understandable, never mind an actual good. Certain beliefs need to be brutally suppressed, even in a free and democratic society.

This case is also a point where hate crimes and car culture meet up. Would the perpetrator have been able to commit this crime with another weapon? Most car-related violence is unintentional; it’s sloppy driving by people who don’t intend to hurt anybody, even if their level of care for those outside their vehicle is entirely insufficient. In this case it’s (apparently; trial to confirm) intentional. It would be interesting to know what kind of a driver the perpetrator normally is: do they normally speed through quiet streets and cut off pedestrians at crosswalks, or are they a perfectly reasonable driver when they aren’t deliberately killing people? Are there any past incidents or near-incidents which were not properly identified at the time?

I agree with most of the context, though I am unsure of how it's related to a car. A car, in this case, is the weapon. Perhaps in this case though, using a car might have created a better outcome. By that, I mean, he likely would have committed a gun crime at a later date, at one of their religious services, and perhaps injuring and killing more people. Though it's difficult to predict different outcomes.

Either way, it doesn't seem to me that being caught was an issue for him. Hopefully he's jailed consecutively, and not concurrent.

[ijmorlan]

What a load of horseshit!

Thanks for your well-reasoned reply!

But seriously folks, there are a lot of valid things one can think and say about this, including many things which are different from or even in contradiction with the things I have said or might say; but I think it’s safe to say that the discourse is not improved by thoughtless replies like this one.

[ijmorlan]

That's what you take exception too?  Not the future crimes punishment? Which, for the record, is where I must disagree.

Yes, I’m not even quite sure what I mean by that myself. I do not actually think that we should have a pre-crime unit in the police like in Minority Report (even without the fictitious mental abilities if I remember the movie correctly). My statement should be taken more of an expression of my feelings about how seriously we need to take hatred as a society, not so much as an actual proposal for law enforcement.