ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit

[panamaniac]

First of all, this is simply not true, the region could say no to freight. It wouldn't be a good idea and it would probably result in expensive lawsuits but there is nothing protected about freight. 

The Region's agreement with CN was in a council report. The agreement very specifically includes the region's right to terminate freight service at contract renewal, which is every few years, if it interferes excessively with ION operations.

I think the reason they won't is that ending CN service to Elmira would effectively force the Chemtura plant to close, and everyone to lose their job. The news story would then be "ION causes loss of hundreds (thousands?) of jobs" .
Chemtura is I think the biggest employer in Elmira.

I think Chemtura employs fewer than 200 people at the Elmira plant.

[ijmorlan]

I had heard about these delays in passing from ION riders, and I finally took the time to check it out on TransSee. On one particularly bad night (Jan 16), 504 was held at Waterloo Public Square for 25 minutes, which meant 510 had to be held at Allen and also ended up 15 minutes late. These delays are slowly made up all the way to Conestoga and back to Fairway because they're so long, but on this night even that wasn't enough, and it really messed up the schedule. Sometimes Fairway-bound LRVs are held at Waterloo Park while the freight train is on the line, but they're released before the Conestoga-bound LRV so it doesn't seem like the freight train has to completely clear Northfield before ION traffic resumes.

Interesting. I strongly suspect they are being overcautious with the separation; the southbound LRV should move on from Waterloo Park to the signal just south of the bridge over the creek as soon as the freight crosses King. Then once the freight has cleared the interlocking, it should switch forthwith to allow the southbound LRV to continue; then as soon as that has cleared it should switch to allow the northbound LRV to proceed.

I await with baited breath the detailed explanations from railway signal engineers why this would actually be dangerous. My argument is basically that if regular traffic driven by the usual level of skilled driver we see on the roads every day can be trusted with level crossings, then trained LRV operators can be trusted to stop at a red signal and only proceed when it turns green after the freight has left. They don’t need to hold 600m up the track.

[ijmorlan]

The Region's agreement with CN was in a council report. The agreement very specifically includes the region's right to terminate freight service at contract renewal, which is every few years, if it interferes excessively with ION operations.

I think the reason they won't is that ending CN service to Elmira would effectively force the Chemtura plant to close, and everyone to lose their job. The news story would then be "ION causes loss of hundreds (thousands?) of jobs" .
Chemtura is I think the biggest employer in Elmira.

I think Chemtura employs fewer than 200 people at the Elmira plant.

I did not know the Region had the right to terminate freight service. I wonder how that fits in with the laws governing railways? My understanding is that normally if a railway company wants to close a line, they have to go through an extensive abandonment process, which includes the right for somebody else to come along and buy the line for the purpose of operating it.

Also I should mention that it’s not just Chemtura — there is at least one other company up in Elmira that takes tank cars, and the Home Hardware in St. Jacobs (store, not, strangely, the distribution centre) also takes lumber deliveries. I doubt loss of the railway would really make much difference to the store — they would just get more trucks in. I don’t know about the other customers.

[KevinT]

Interesting. I strongly suspect they are being overcautious with the separation; the southbound LRV should move on from Waterloo Park to the signal just south of the bridge over the creek as soon as the freight crosses King. Then once the freight has cleared the interlocking, it should switch forthwith to allow the southbound LRV to continue; then as soon as that has cleared it should switch to allow the northbound LRV to proceed.

I await with baited breath the detailed explanations from railway signal engineers why this would actually be dangerous. My argument is basically that if regular traffic driven by the usual level of skilled driver we see on the roads every day can be trusted with level crossings, then trained LRV operators can be trusted to stop at a red signal and only proceed when it turns green after the freight has left. They don’t need to hold 600m up the track.

I'd be surprised if they weren't also de-energizing the overhead catenary system (OCS) on the shared segment when the freight train is on the line. This would affect a much larger block of track, and you wouldn't want any LRVs to be sitting cold and dark (or warm and dark in summer) on an un-powered section with passengers on board.

[ijmorlan]

I'd be surprised if they weren't also de-energizing the overhead catenary system (OCS) on the shared segment when the freight train is on the line. This would affect a much larger block of track, and you wouldn't want any LRVs to be sitting cold and dark (or warm and dark in summer) on an un-powered section with passengers on board.

Interesting point. That certainly could be true. On one level it’s a bit weird — how does it work where freight trains are electric? — but on another I can see it being done.

If that is an issue, then it might be helpful to break up that part of the OCS system into smaller segments. Not sure how complicated that would be.

[danbrotherston]

I'd be surprised if they weren't also de-energizing the overhead catenary system (OCS) on the shared segment when the freight train is on the line. This would affect a much larger block of track, and you wouldn't want any LRVs to be sitting cold and dark (or warm and dark in summer) on an un-powered section with passengers on board.

Interesting point. That certainly could be true. On one level it’s a bit weird — how does it work where freight trains are electric? — but on another I can see it being done.

If that is an issue, then it might be helpful to break up that part of the OCS system into smaller segments. Not sure how complicated that would be.

Are there any electric freight in N/A? Certainly there is none in Canada. I think we're all aware that our railroad regs are terribly obsolete compared with other places, so it makes sense that those places have better regs in this context as well.

That being said, I'm not sure breaking it up would help any, I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear that they require both directions to be unpowered before freight proceeds.

[Bob_McBob]

As another example, February 18 was a real doozy too. While the freight train went up the spur line there were four LRVs waiting for it over a half hour period.

Northbound, 514 was held at Waterloo Public Square from 11:30 to 11:50, and 508 was held behind it at Allen from 11:43 to 11:52.

Southbound, 513 was held at Waterloo Park from 11:37 to 11:47, and 502 was held at Northfield from 11:45 until midnight.

From this I think we can deduce they are only closing off parts of the line, but ION traffic is stopped both ways in the dead sections. In this case none of the LRVs managed to make up the time, and it messed up the schedule for the rest of the night. There were two more nights in February with four LRVs involved (February 5 and 6), and February 20 would also have involved four if one of them hadn't just scooted past in time. CN has only run 8 freight trains so far in February, and half of them caused system-wide scheduling issues in addition to the ridiculous delays. The northbound trip at Waterloo Public Square always gets the worst of it: February's delays were 17:26, 19:30, 14:34, 10:35, 9:49, 10:26, 19:18, and 14:57.

[ijmorlan]

Are there any electric freight in N/A? Certainly there is none in Canada. I think we're all aware that our railroad regs are terribly obsolete compared with other places, so it makes sense that those places have better regs in this context as well.

That being said, I'm not sure breaking it up would help any, I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear that they require both directions to be unpowered before freight proceeds.

As far as I know, you are right about electric freight in North America. I will say that I suspect there probably is some oddball system somewhere, but basically none.

As to the unpowered in both directions, the freight definitely passes a stopped LRV at Seagram station on the other track. To me it would be bizarre if the trains could pass only if the LRV were motionless, but who knows.

[ijmorlan]

And of course if things continue as they have been, we will never get a substantive comment or discussion on what their current policies are or what they could consider doing instead. Just crickets.

[KevinT]

Southbound, 513 was held at Waterloo Park from 11:37 to 11:47, and 502 was held at Northfield from 11:45 until midnight.

That's interesting, as the freight uses the southbound track from the Perimeter Institute to just south of Northfield. That Southbound train holding at Laurier - Waterloo Park would have to be reverse running on the northbound track. I really need to take some time to tune into the radio scanner for this and head up the line to catch this ballet in action.

[Bob_McBob]

It looks like 511 is holding at Waterloo Public Square right now, and Monday seems to be the most consistent day of the week for CN. Anything on the scanner?

Edit: Listening right now and they're talking about "cancelling the freight route" due to a "hiccup" so I was right!

Edit 2: Control just confirmed the freight service was cancelled and authorized 511 to proceed, ending up 11:25 behind schedule. Unfortunately I didn't hear much of anything else since they didn't actually run the train.

Edit 3: 511's operator was instructed to do a "quick turnaround" at Conestoga to minimize the continuing delay caused by the hold.

[danbrotherston]

It looks like 511 is holding at Waterloo Public Square right now, and Monday seems to be the most consistent day of the week for CN. Anything on the scanner?

Edit: Listening right now and they're talking about "cancelling the freight route" due to a "hiccup" so I was right!

Edit 2: Control just confirmed the freight service was cancelled and authorized 511 to proceed, ending up 11:25 behind schedule. Unfortunately I didn't hear much of anything else since they didn't actually run the train.

Edit 3: 511's operator was instructed to do a "quick turnaround" at Conestoga to minimize the continuing delay caused by the hold.

Sorry, let me make sure I understand this. Are you saying we suffered an 11 minute delay, even though CN never ran a freight train at all?

That is absurd.

[jason897]

Sounds like at the above time they were trying to send CN through but had some glitch with the derail on the line. Heard right now on the scanner they’re holding 504 at Waterloo Public Square to try again

[Bob_McBob]

Yep, that's exactly what happened. They later sent someone over to check the derail, and Control is now holding 504 at Waterloo Public Square while CN proceeds. There are no more southbound trips from Conestoga tonight so I won't get to hear them coordinate that.

[taylortbb]

Southbound, 513 was held at Waterloo Park from 11:37 to 11:47, and 502 was held at Northfield from 11:45 until midnight.

That's interesting, as the freight uses the southbound track from the Perimeter Institute to just south of Northfield. That Southbound train holding at Laurier - Waterloo Park would have to be reverse running on the northbound track. I really need to take some time to tune into the radio scanner for this and head up the line to catch this ballet in action.

There have definitely been some posts on social media about people have a reverse running ION trip. I never heard that they had to be stopped while freight goes through, but I guess that's not surprising.

The original system design had three tracks, with the freight one having a crash wall separating it from the LRV tracks. Basically Transport Canada wants LRVs to be safe even if a freight train derails, and they're not rated for that kind of impact. Perhaps they use the station as a pseudo crash wall, providing isolation between LRV and freight.