King-Victoria Transit Hub

[tomh009]

Everything is speculation at this point. For all we know, this will be the better path forward.

The region wants the hub, and they want a good hub. If the developer's proposal was not good enough, then I'm happy that the region rejected it. It's better to have a top-quality hub a few years later than a mediocre one now.

[tomh009]

This all means no rapid transit train plan London to KW then KW to union?

Doug Ford says 'hello'.

… as long as it's built as a subway!

[Momo26]

Ugh. Maybe it's a bit of 'smaller city' inferiority complex and I know we are self sustaining - not dependent on the Toronto markets - but I've felt like having a reliable, and fast means of getting to and from there would be the icing on the cake for this growing and prosperous region!

It'll happen - it's bound to if you believe the growth in this region is not a bubble.

[urbd]

That's absolutely awful.

The fact that there were so few submissions tells me there was something wrong with the Region's RFP process in the first place.  Were there red flags?

So few? there was only one, and it was Perimeter Development in a consortium with a bunch of consultants. I have a feeling Perimeter simply wanted an office expansion of the Breithaupt Block (Google) on the Hub lands, with a small mixed use component and the required transit infrastructure.

[Spokes]

Ya you're right, few definitely implies more than one hah.

So why only one?

I hadn't thought of that, but that would make a lot of sense from Perimeter's standpoint. But definitely not in line with the Region's vision.

[urbd]

Ya you're right, few definitely implies more than one hah.

So why only one?

I hadn't thought of that, but that would make a lot of sense from Perimeter's standpoint.  But definitely not in line with the Region's vision.

Exactly, Perimeter is an office developer (for the most part) so I could see why they were not interested in building three 15-40 storey residential towers, especially given all the recent and upcoming condo development within Downtown.

[Spokes]

Exactly. They know their niche. They stick to it.

Residential and/or hotel is not that.

[tomh009]

Exactly, Perimeter is an office developer (for the most part) so I could see why they were not interested in building three 15-40 storey residential towers, especially given all the recent and upcoming condo development within Downtown.

Ellis-Don and the Kilmer Group are pretty large developers and were part of the King Victoria Transit Hub Partners Inc.

Ellis-Don is a construction company. Kilmer does invest in real estate projects, including some residential. But they are really an investor, not a real estate developer, so I think the developer role would have still fallen to Perimeter.

[Viewfromthe42]

The region wanted the transit portion immediately, which doesn't give any real financial return to the developers. The region also required some amount of preservation of Rumpel Felt Co. These both cost a lot of money, and remove a lot of possibility for the financial viability of the site. My guess is that either the region suggested "and you can build to match the roofline of Breithaupt block" and got laughed out of the room, or were telling the developers to hold off a long time on developing the residential/office/commercial portions, at more great cost to the developer. The region likely overplayed their hand, thinking who wouldn't want to develop this prime parcel, but really it's one of the most hamstrung parcels in the region, and you're going to need to work with developers if you want anything good to come from it.

[Spokes]

I forgot about the desire for the transit portion immediately. There are definitely issues making this hard.

So how do you fix it though? I suspect that is something that is important, but could you build the transit portion while a tower is being built at the same time? I don't know. And I'm guessing they're set on Rumpel Felt sticking around too

[tomh009]

The region wanted the transit portion immediately, which doesn't give any real financial return to the developers. The region also required some amount of preservation of Rumpel Felt Co. These both cost a lot of money, and remove a lot of possibility for the financial viability of the site. My guess is that either the region suggested "and you can build to match the roofline of Breithaupt block" and got laughed out of the room, or were telling the developers to hold off a long time on developing the residential/office/commercial portions, at more great cost to the developer. The region likely overplayed their hand, thinking who wouldn't want to develop this prime parcel, but really it's one of the most hamstrung parcels in the region, and you're going to need to work with developers if you want anything good to come from it.

Yes, the transit portion in itself does not bring a (strong? any?) financial return. But neither does just buying the land. It's just an up-front cost that needs to be included as part of the calculations.

Your guess is that the region is being unreasonable. My inclination is not to blame the region. But neither one of us really knows any detail about these negotiations.

[taylortbb]

I wouldn't say the transit portion can't have any financial return. The region has a $50M budget to pay for the development of the transit portion. That's probably not enough to cover the full cost of building all the retail components, and that's why the developer would own the retail components and earn their own profit from them, but it should be enough that the retail/residential components aren't having to subsidize the transit components either.

[Quadcities34]

Few major factors with this one contributing to why this Transit Hub is going to sit for a long time, unless the Region pitches this build to a Toronto Developer looking to get their feet wet in the KW market. The hurdles and regulations with this site would still be a dream compared to what developers are now faced with trying to build in T.O. Problem #1) every reputable high rise builder in KW is going to be occupied for the next 5+ years with projects . The proforma, in combination with the mandatory build guidelines for the transit hub are not appealing for anyone other than Perimeter, who essentially own most of the surrounding block already. Problem #2) The scale of the project requires a developer with either extremely deep pockets, or who have a partnership with a large capital venture firm. Again, the few ones who do are occupied as per problem #1. Problem #3) the restrictions, pre-set build guidelines, provincial involvement, loss of OMB as a backup to obtain approvals make this site one of the highest risk sites in KW. Higher risk means the Money to build will be more expense, and if cost cannot be offset by increasing height, or taking out office, no dice for prospective developers. I agree with the previous comments, will be interesting to see these alternative plans.

[ijmorlan]

…, loss of OMB as a backup to obtain approvals ….

Is the OMB really a factor? Since the Region owns the site, they have to approve anyway, as site owner, and if they approve as owner presumably they will approve as zoning authority. It wouldn’t make sense for the Region, with the developer, to appeal the Region’s planning decisions to the OMB.

I agree a lot of the other factors make some sense to me. I hope we see some movement before too long, but it’s definitely not an ordinary site and that might make it harder to find somebody to work on it.

[welltoldtales]

The other major issue is half the build is engendered to having two-way all day GO, but that isn't a formality. Right now the MOU has been signed but who knows what happens over the medium to long-term. There hasn't been movement on the key pieces to building two-way, such as electrification or expanded access over the highway. They are still in EA mode and things can change pretty drastically during that process.