Winter Walking and Cycling

[danbrotherston]

The thing which bothers me is the idea that sidewalks which are 95% cleared are passable.  To many people, they aren't.

when I read it all i could think of was your complaint that the sidewalks were unpassable when there was just some light snowfall last year.

I'm really not sure what your personal issue with me is.

But it's a shame you're letting it prevent you from recognizing the difficult that some in our community have getting around, and causing you to be disruptive here.

I'm quite sure that everyone recognizes that if 95% of the snow is removed from every sidewalk that's fine, but that isn't what 95% clear means.

[darts]

when I read it all i could think of was your complaint that the sidewalks were unpassable when there was just some light snowfall last year.

I'm really not sure what your personal issue with me is.

But it's a shame you're letting it prevent you from recognizing the difficult that some in our community have getting around, and causing you to be disruptive here.

I'm quite sure that everyone recognizes that if 95% of the snow is removed from every sidewalk that's fine, but that isn't what 95% clear means.

I don't have any personal issue with you, I am sorry that you see it that way, and am not sure how that post was 'disruptive'. I just wanted to highlight that people have different ideas of what passable is.

I'm not sure where in my short statement that I am denying that some people can't move anywhere if there is snow. 

I wanted to contribute further but it seems that only certain views are welcomed.

[MidTowner]

The thing which bothers me is the idea that sidewalks which are 95% cleared are passable.  To many people, they aren't.

when I read it all i could think of was your complaint that the sidewalks were unpassable when there was just some light snowfall last year.

Last year's winter was abnormally easy, but even then there were a few cases of snowfall that resulted in impassable sidewalks. Thanks to the weather, these were few, and pretty brief.

The TriTag notes that specifically- it was not a normal winter, it was abnormally warm, but still the rate that sidewalks were cleared was pretty poor. And the test is higher than most people would apply.

We're getting lucky this year, in the grand scheme of things. The Christmas holiday was pretty bad for walking around, but in the new year at least we've had a thaw, and we'll have another one later this week. But, in the meantime, there have been significant periods where it's a challenge to get around, despite the easy weather.

[ijmorlan]

I'm really not sure what your personal issue with me is.

But it's a shame you're letting it prevent you from recognizing the difficult that some in our community have getting around, and causing you to be disruptive here.

I'm quite sure that everyone recognizes that if 95% of the snow is removed from every sidewalk that's fine, but that isn't what 95% clear means.

I don't have any personal issue with you, I am sorry that you see it that way, and am not sure how that post was 'disruptive'. I just wanted to highlight that people have different ideas of what passable is.

I'm not sure where in my short statement that I am denying that some people can't move anywhere if there is snow. 

I wanted to contribute further but it seems that only certain views are welcomed.

Just like different people have different ideas of what accessible is. For example, a building with stairs at the entrance is perfectly accessible to me, but I have enough imagination to understand that someday I might be the one in the wheelchair so I am able to correctly judge that the building itself is inaccessible.

Similarly, a sidewalk covered in inches of slush is impassable, even if I personally can push through. So if 1/20 of the properties in a neighbourhood don’t clear their snow, then the neighbourhood is impassable. We’re talking about sidewalks, not back-country utility roads that require a 4x4 to drive.

[PhilippAchtel]

I'm really not sure what your personal issue with me is.

But it's a shame you're letting it prevent you from recognizing the difficult that some in our community have getting around, and causing you to be disruptive here.

I'm quite sure that everyone recognizes that if 95% of the snow is removed from every sidewalk that's fine, but that isn't what 95% clear means.

I don't have any personal issue with you, I am sorry that you see it that way, and am not sure how that post was 'disruptive'. I just wanted to highlight that people have different ideas of what passable is.

I'm not sure where in my short statement that I am denying that some people can't move anywhere if there is snow. 

I wanted to contribute further but it seems that only certain views are welcomed.

Nah, you dug up your personal history of interacting with this poster in a drive-by low-substance comment. Now, when you're called out on it, you're playing the victim to elicit sympathy. It's silly.

Clearly, danbrotherson understands that people have different ideas of what passable means. Someone who is able-bodied can stumble through a pressed-down section of sidewalk and mostly manage to not fall on their face. Is this "cleared" because the most people with no mobility issues can get through, albeit awkwardly?

On the other hand, you have people in mobility scooters, with walkers, pushing strollers and so on who are forced by the very same section of sidewalk to detour onto the road to get by. Can this section of sidewalk be said to be "cleared" if people have to walk in the road (which coincidentally is cleared by the city, whom we are saying are too slow to provide adequate service) to pass?

Nothing will stop concerned or proud homeowners from clearing their own sidewalks if they choose, just as nothing stops them from clearing GRT stops before the contractor arrives. But danbrotherson is correct to say that city and regional policy should be set primarily for the routes pedestrians depend on before poo-pooing the idea because it might not give the same priority to culs-de-sac as it does for major arterial routes. After all, this is precisely the system we use for street plowing, which while not perfect is miles ahead of sidewalk maintenance policy.

[danbrotherston]

Nah, you dug up your personal history of interacting with this poster in a drive-by low-substance comment. Now, when you're called out on it, you're playing the victim to elicit sympathy. It's silly.

...

I am not eliciting sympathy. I'm making it clear I will not be bullied in this forum. I have no patience for it. Also, how could I be playing victim to being "called out" on it, I literally have not even replied to the thread until now.

What is silly is for this issue to continue to be raised. I was happy to leave it at darts transparent denial, you're the one bringing it up again.

[PhilippAchtel]

Nah, you dug up your personal history of interacting with this poster in a drive-by low-substance comment. Now, when you're called out on it, you're playing the victim to elicit sympathy. It's silly.

...

I am not eliciting sympathy.  I'm making it clear I will not be bullied in this forum.  I have no patience for it.  Also, how could I be playing victim to being "called out" on it, I literally have not even replied to the thread until now.

What is silly is for this issue to continue to be raised.  I was happy to leave it at darts transparent denial, you're the one bringing it up again.

I wasn't responding to you. I was responding to darts.

[danbrotherston]

I am not eliciting sympathy.  I'm making it clear I will not be bullied in this forum.  I have no patience for it.  Also, how could I be playing victim to being "called out" on it, I literally have not even replied to the thread until now.

What is silly is for this issue to continue to be raised.  I was happy to leave it at darts transparent denial, you're the one bringing it up again.

I wasn't responding to you. I was responding to darts.

Ahh, my mistake.  That does make much more sense.  My apologies for being overly defensive and jumping down your throat about it.

[goggolor]

It sounds like all of the complaints are starting to get through to city officials: https://www.kitchenerpost.ca/news-story/...priority-/

Mayor Berry Vrbanovic said the city needs to do better.

“If we’re encouraging more people to walk, if we’re encouraging more people to rely on transit, if we're wanting to make our community more accessible … this is something we need to do a better job on — and when I say we, I mean the city in some cases and the region in others.”

Vrbanovic wondered if local governments should study the number of people with accessibility challenges and perhaps provide a higher level of public transit during the winter months instead.

Several other councillors also expressed a desire to move toward change.

“For this being one of the first years I’ve had to walk my kids to a bus stop with a stroller … I’ve learned some of the challenges first hand,” Galloway-Sealock said. “I’ve had to go on road and everything because the curb cuts aren’t plowed and many different things.”

She’s also hearing a lot more public support for municipal sidewalk clearing.

“I think it is something we need to seriously consider.”

[KevinL]

perhaps provide a higher level of public transit during the winter months instead

How does that help if people still can't reach bus stops?

[MidTowner]

The full line was "Vrbanovic wondered if local governments should study the number of people with accessibility challenges and perhaps provide a higher level of public transit during the winter months instead," so I assumed he was referring specifically to a higher level of MobilityPLUS (or taxi scrip or other) service.

[danbrotherston]

I'm glad they're hearing the message, but I'm not holding my breath for action. They already "heard the message loud and clear" years ago, they commissioned a study which took an unacceptable period of time to put together, then said no, despite the entirely reasonable number of $26 a year on tax bills to implement.

So yeah, I'm not holding my breath. Instead, I will be letting it control my vote in the next election.

[darts]

Nah, you dug up your personal history of interacting with this poster in a drive-by low-substance comment. Now, when you're called out on it, you're playing the victim to elicit sympathy. It's silly.

...

I am not eliciting sympathy.  I'm making it clear I will not be bullied in this forum.  I have no patience for it.  Also, how could I be playing victim to being "called out" on it, I literally have not even replied to the thread until now.

What is silly is for this issue to continue to be raised.  I was happy to leave it at darts transparent denial, you're the one bringing it up again.

You overreacted on a statement that you interpreted as an attack instead of clarifying and then attacked me accusing me of being disruptive here.

[darts]

I don't have any personal issue with you, I am sorry that you see it that way, and am not sure how that post was 'disruptive'. I just wanted to highlight that people have different ideas of what passable is.

I'm not sure where in my short statement that I am denying that some people can't move anywhere if there is snow. 

I wanted to contribute further but it seems that only certain views are welcomed.

Nah, you dug up your personal history of interacting with this poster in a drive-by low-substance comment. Now, when you're called out on it, you're playing the victim to elicit sympathy. It's silly.

Clearly, danbrotherson understands that people have different ideas of what passable means. Someone who is able-bodied can stumble through a pressed-down section of sidewalk and mostly manage to not fall on their face. Is this "cleared" because the most people with no mobility issues can get through, albeit awkwardly?

On the other hand, you have people in mobility scooters, with walkers, pushing strollers and so on who are forced by the very same section of sidewalk to detour onto the road to get by. Can this section of sidewalk be said to be "cleared" if people have to walk in the road (which coincidentally is cleared by the city, whom we are saying are too slow to provide adequate service) to pass?

Nothing will stop concerned or proud homeowners from clearing their own sidewalks if they choose, just as nothing stops them from clearing GRT stops before the contractor arrives. But danbrotherson is correct to say that city and regional policy should be set primarily for the routes pedestrians depend on before poo-pooing the idea because it might not give the same priority to culs-de-sac as it does for major arterial routes. After all, this is precisely the system we use for street plowing, which while not perfect is miles ahead of sidewalk maintenance policy.

I have a history with him? I know I pointed out before that he was over exaggerating previously after a snowfall on how unpassable a sidewalk was for him, a self described able body person and how much worse it would be for others. (to be clear, not saying it isn't more difficult for others, just saying he shouldn't have been feeling like it is pushing his limits physically so it would be impossible for anyone who has the slightest issue)

Only other thing I can think of off the top of my head would be about development charges for townships for transit that won't benefit them.

Clearly I needed to write a few paragraphs to show that the measurement tritag used to determine what is passable needs more discussion since some people would say anything that doesn't show the concrete of the sidewalk is unpassable and give it a failing grade. 

It does bring up an interesting question that will probably just get people shitting on me for asking. should it be at a level so that everyone can pass regardless of their personal mobility issues? How many people not being able to cross is acceptable?

[PhilippAchtel]

Nah, you dug up your personal history of interacting with this poster in a drive-by low-substance comment. Now, when you're called out on it, you're playing the victim to elicit sympathy. It's silly.

Clearly, danbrotherson understands that people have different ideas of what passable means. Someone who is able-bodied can stumble through a pressed-down section of sidewalk and mostly manage to not fall on their face. Is this "cleared" because the most people with no mobility issues can get through, albeit awkwardly?

On the other hand, you have people in mobility scooters, with walkers, pushing strollers and so on who are forced by the very same section of sidewalk to detour onto the road to get by. Can this section of sidewalk be said to be "cleared" if people have to walk in the road (which coincidentally is cleared by the city, whom we are saying are too slow to provide adequate service) to pass?

Nothing will stop concerned or proud homeowners from clearing their own sidewalks if they choose, just as nothing stops them from clearing GRT stops before the contractor arrives. But danbrotherson is correct to say that city and regional policy should be set primarily for the routes pedestrians depend on before poo-pooing the idea because it might not give the same priority to culs-de-sac as it does for major arterial routes. After all, this is precisely the system we use for street plowing, which while not perfect is miles ahead of sidewalk maintenance policy.

I have a history with him? I know I pointed out before that he was over exaggerating previously after a snowfall on how unpassable a sidewalk was for him, a self described able body person and how much worse it would be for others. (to be clear, not saying it isn't more difficult for others, just saying he shouldn't have been feeling like it is pushing his limits physically so it would be impossible for anyone who has the slightest issue)

Only other thing I can think of off the top of my head would be about development charges for townships for transit that won't benefit them.

Clearly I needed to write a few paragraphs to show that the measurement tritag used to determine what is passable needs more discussion since some people would say anything that doesn't show the concrete of the sidewalk is unpassable and give it a failing grade. 

It does bring up an interesting question that will probably just get people shitting on me for asking. should it be at a level so that everyone can pass regardless of their personal mobility issues? How many people not being able to cross is acceptable?

None. After 24 hours, anyone who can travel on a regular sidewalk in any other season should be able to travel on a sidewalk in the winter.

We're a medium-sized wealthy city in the 21st century. We know the cost of providing such a service, and that it's well within our means to do so. The ability to safely travel from your home to your destination even in winter should be seen as something of a human right. The idea that anyone in our city has to take the road to pass with their stroller or mobility scooter should be seen as an embarrassment.