General Road and Highway Discussion

[darts]

maybe it is so the roundabout can accomodate larger trucks, buses, firetrucks.

[danbrotherston]

maybe it is so the roundabout can accomodate larger trucks, buses, firetrucks.

There are plenty of options to allow this without making the circle larger.  Mountable medians, lane straddling, and the like.  Even then, I think we're still oversize.  Trucks can maneuver through most of our roundabouts at near full speed without even straddling lane.

@timio  Do you have any evidence that roundabouts are less safe for pedestrians.  In fact, all the data I have suggests that they are more safe.   And I'm not talking about comfort.  I absolutely acknowledge that they are less comfortable to pedestrians (just as they are less comfortable for drivers), but in terms of actual risk of injury, I'd be very surprised if they were worse than signalized intersections.

@Spokes  Needed or not is a question of value for sure, but out of curiosity, regardless of need, do you think they would be a bad thing?  I'd prefer them, even if traffic flow or injury rates didn't necessitate them.

[timio]

@timio  Do you have any evidence that roundabouts are less safe for pedestrians.  In fact, all the data I have suggests that they are more safe.   And I'm not talking about comfort.  I absolutely acknowledge that they are less comfortable to pedestrians (just as they are less comfortable for drivers), but in terms of actual risk of injury, I'd be very surprised if they were worse than signalized intersections.

Sorry, I used the wrong phrase earlier.  I agree that they are less dangerous, but more uncomfortable for pedestrians.

Drivers aren't necessarily used to expecting pedestrians at roundabouts, especially along Ira Needles where there's only residential on the one side.  Along Highland, there's residential on both sides meaning the volume of pedestrians will likely be higher, although my experience is the traffic volume is lower.

[darts]

maybe it is so the roundabout can accomodate larger trucks, buses, firetrucks.

There are plenty of options to allow this without making the circle larger.  Mountable medians, lane straddling, and the like.  Even then, I think we're still oversize.  Trucks can maneuver through most of our roundabouts at near full speed without even straddling lane.

Not sure what roundabouts you have been watching but I haven't seen a large truck go through a round about without straddling the lines at a crawl. I don't think I have seen once go through at anything that might be considered a normal speed.

[Chicopee]

There are plenty of options to allow this without making the circle larger.  Mountable medians, lane straddling, and the like.  Even then, I think we're still oversize.  Trucks can maneuver through most of our roundabouts at near full speed without even straddling lane.

Not sure what roundabouts you have been watching but I haven't seen a large truck go through a round about without straddling the lines at a crawl. I don't think I have seen once go through at anything that might be considered a normal speed.

My personal favorite comes to mind: Margaret & Union.

[jamincan]

Do we have any examples of roundabouts with high pedestrian use? Off the top of my head, Laurelwood & Blue Beech Blvd (near SJAM) surely is, and I imagine the car traffic before and after school would also be fairly high.

[SammyOES2]

I think it's hard to judge pedestrian safety from KW roundabouts because most of them do seem to be in relatively light pedestrian areas. But googling around seems to agree that they're safer in general.

Also, I almost always see transports using both lanes of the roundabout. It actually irritates me because I feel like they often just pull into the 2nd lane without caring about other traffic - like they're owed both lanes right when they want it.

[danbrotherston]

Not sure what roundabouts you have been watching but I haven't seen a large truck go through a round about without straddling the lines at a crawl. I don't think I have seen once go through at anything that might be considered a normal speed.

My personal favorite comes to mind: Margaret & Union.

I'm not sure what you consider a "normal speed", but I've ridden down Ira Needles numerous times, and I've never seen them go substantially slower than traffic should be moving.

As for lane straddling, maybe it depends on their direction, I've seen them go straight through in one lane, I don't know about left turns, but even so, like I said, there are other options.


In fact, the Margaret and Union roundabout (which is only one lane) just proves that point.  Yes, trucks go through there quite slowly on the rare occasion that they do, but there's nothing wrong with that.  The important thing is that they still go through.

[darts]

My personal favorite comes to mind: Margaret & Union.

I'm not sure what you consider a "normal speed", but I've ridden down Ira Needles numerous times, and I've never seen them go substantially slower than traffic should be moving.

As for lane straddling, maybe it depends on their direction, I've seen them go straight through in one lane, I don't know about left turns, but even so, like I said, there are other options.


In fact, the Margaret and Union roundabout (which is only one lane) just proves that point.  Yes, trucks go through there quite slowly on the rare occasion that they do, but there's nothing wrong with that.  The important thing is that they still go through.

I was just replying to the post that mentioned them going through roundabouts at normal speeds, I didn't create that term

[kps]

There are plenty of options to allow this without making the circle larger.  Mountable medians, lane straddling, and the like.

UK is full of roundabouts like this (image mirrored for driving on the right):

   

They fit in nearly any intersection, obstruct neither large vehicles nor vision, and cost approximately 15 minutes of paint crew next time they redo the lines.

[The85]

Not sure what roundabouts you have been watching but I haven't seen a large truck go through a round about without straddling the lines at a crawl. I don't think I have seen once go through at anything that might be considered a normal speed.

My personal favorite comes to mind: Margaret & Union.

By the chunks out of the hydro poles around the roundabout at Margaret and Union (https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.4672537,-...312!8i6656 and https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.467255,-8...312!8i6656), it's clear some large vehicles have difficulty maneuvering this tighter roundabout.

[tomh009]

By the chunks out of the hydro poles around the roundabout at Margaret and Union (https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.4672537,-...312!8i6656 and https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.467255,-8...312!8i6656), it's clear some large vehicles have difficulty maneuvering this tighter roundabout.

Looking at that damage, I'm pretty sure it was some large truck making a right-hand turn, not negotiating the roundabout

[jwilliamson]

The 8 bus will often make a left turn by turning over the centre.

[MidTowner]

I was just going to point out that out- I would say the 8 routinely mounts the curb in the centre, sometimes even passing right over it. I have seen other larger (and other not-so-large) vehicles do the same.

It irks me that the centre is not landscaped. And that roundabout has been there for a while, but motorists who use it seem to generally not know that people on foot have the right of way. There are plenty of people on foot in that area.

[danbrotherston]

By the chunks out of the hydro poles around the roundabout at Margaret and Union (https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.4672537,-...312!8i6656 and https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.467255,-8...312!8i6656), it's clear some large vehicles have difficulty maneuvering this tighter roundabout.

Looking at that damage, I'm pretty sure it was some large truck making a right-hand turn, not negotiating the roundabout

It does appear to be right turn damage.  Of course, it's still not a good idea to design our roadways bigger to accommodate bad drivers, it should be well known by now, that such design choices only exasperate the problem.  

As for the rest, the centre is intentionally mountable.  Probably some vehicles take it too far, and lazily run over the middle and landscaping would fix this (no matter the screaming and terror that such scenery seems to elicit from various comment sections).

@kps  Yes, I have seen those, I think that's a fantastic design, and I hope one day we can get to that point.

Interestingly, in the Netherlands, many intersections do not even bother with the roundabout, instead preferring to have low speed intersections be entirely uncontrolled and rely on "default priority", something which, although it actually does appear in the HTA, I'm willing to bet less than 1% of drivers know about, hell, I wonder if a substantial portion of police officers are aware of this law.

In any case, for the majority here, "default priority" is basically the opposite of a traffic circle.  In countries where traffic drives on the right hand side of the road, a vehicle approaching an intersection with default priority must yield to vehicle approaching on the right. Basically, it's a 4-way "yield" sign.

Sadly, given that even 1 way yield signs seem beyond some drivers here, I fear it will be a long time before such simple, cheap, easy, and common sense designs will work here.

It of course doesn't help that at least in the Netherlands, these intersections were generally 30 km/h, and, not the pretend 30km/h zones we ever so rarely see here.